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Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback)
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Brent
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

I remember this car from the first time around. Really liked the family project.

Is there any evidence that it has been in a wreck, specifically the front end? The hood shouldn't be that far off.

The chrome beak is removable, there are 4 or 5 screws on the back side holding it to the hood. Also, you can adjust the position of the latch to get it latch proper. I'm more concerned that you have a bigger issue if your gaps are that far off.

Also, you'll get better measurements from a fixed point on the hood to compare them rather than the ground, like the holes for the latch to the back or corners or hinges.
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
I remember this car from the first time around. Really liked the family project.


Thanks. The whole family is back at it.

Brent wrote:
Is there any evidence that it has been in a wreck, specifically the front end? The hood shouldn't be that far off.


Yes. Probably several times.

Brent wrote:
The chrome beak is removable, there are 4 or 5 screws on the back side holding it to the hood. Also, you can adjust the position of the latch to get it latch proper. I'm more concerned that you have a bigger issue if your gaps are that far off.


I took the chrome beak off and laid it up against the original hood. The curvature is way off.

Brent wrote:
Also, you'll get better measurements from a fixed point on the hood to compare them rather than the ground, like the holes for the latch to the back or corners or hinges.


I'll try a more precise measurment.
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

A few more pics to accompany my hood investigation. Some obvious problems.

The passenger side is touching but the driver side isn't.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Passenger side. You can see where when it's opened the friction chips off paint.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Driver side.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Windshield wiper as a manual bump stop for the hood. Love it! Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Temmett
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

We're doing a little vlog style documentation of the build this time around.


Link

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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Very cool Temmett.
On the wiring, I'd probably disconnect it all from the fuse box, and using a long jumper wire (with alligator clips on each end) ohm out each one, to verify it's still good.

Also in the top right side of the page is a link to the technical section. Click on it, (it defaults to T-2, so you'll have to click on type 3) and then bring up the wiring diagram for your year in the t-3 section. Save it to a memory stick and then have it printed out (Kinko's). It's in color which is nice to follow. Russ recommended having it laminated (and blown up slightly larger), so you could follow it along with a grease pencil. That would help you out to verify the individual wires are going where they should go.
Then once you know the wires are good, it's just a matter of re-attaching them to the fuse box on 1 end, and to their component on the other. No sense and making it harder on you, and then trying to find out something's not working later on. Test it all before hand. If you find a problem, NOW is the time to fix it.

Remember, one of the first things PO's do to old VWs is mess with the wiring. I don't know why, but they do. Ask Tram.
I hope this helps.

P.S. You might need to pull the front end out like you did to the rear years ago ( Wink ), to get a better hood alignment.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Brent
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
P.S. You might need to pull the front end out like you did to the rear years ago ( Wink ), to get a better hood alignment.


Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking given those pictures. Hope it's not too bad.
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
On the wiring, I'd probably disconnect it all from the fuse box, and using a long jumper wire (with alligator clips on each end) ohm out each one, to verify it's still good.

Also in the top right side of the page is a link to the technical section. Click on it, (it defaults to T-2, so you'll have to click on type 3) and then bring up the wiring diagram for your year in the t-3 section. Save it to a memory stick and then have it printed out (Kinko's). It's in color which is nice to follow. Russ recommended having it laminated (and blown up slightly larger), so you could follow it along with a grease pencil. That would help you out to verify the individual wires are going where they should go.
Then once you know the wires are good, it's just a matter of re-attaching them to the fuse box on 1 end, and to their component on the other. No sense and making it harder on you, and then trying to find out something's not working later on. Test it all before hand. If you find a problem, NOW is the time to fix it.

Remember, one of the first things PO's do to old VWs is mess with the wiring. I don't know why, but they do. Ask Tram.
I hope this helps.

Thanks for all the guidance. I will definitely download, print, and laminate the diagram. The very first thing we ever did to Bettie back in the day was replace the wiring harness. We learned the hard way why laminating the diagram is beneficial. I don't even remember how this diagram got ruined, even after it was laminated. But my wife soldiered through. Very Happy

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Quote:
P.S. You might need to pull the front end out like you did to the rear years ago ( Wink ), to get a better hood alignment.

Interesting idea. I might give that a try. Very Happy
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
P.S. You might need to pull the front end out like you did to the rear years ago ( Wink ), to get a better hood alignment.


Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking given those pictures. Hope it's not too bad.


Brent, here's to hoping. Smile
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

We were pretty stoked to have dropped Bettie's engine. It was the first time we'd ever done it so we took our time and learned as we went. Even though I know it's a simple thing, it feels like we accomplished something major.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's been stripped down and put on the stand. I know the idea is to get the engine back in the car, but maybe I could just get another one to keep as a garage decoration...?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This little guy hit the ground when we pulled the muffler off. Don't know what it is. You?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My son is going to be driving this as his first car so we're doing the engine overhaul together. I pulled the first head today. He'll get to tackle the other side. But this is what I found. Lots of carbon...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and some gnarly cracks.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Brent
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Those adapters that mount to your oil pump studs have mixed reviews. IMO, that's a lot of weight to be suspended by your oil pump studs. Maybe ok for a stocker, but you might want to consider finding a later case with the proper bosses for the mustache bar.

There are a lot of good new heads. I wouldn't trust them with cracks to the valve seats.

...probably not what you wanted to hear.

Have you make any progress on the front end?
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Those adapters that mount to your oil pump studs have mixed reviews. IMO, that's a lot of weight to be suspended by your oil pump studs. Maybe ok for a stocker, but you might want to consider finding a later case with the proper bosses for the mustache bar.

There are a lot of good new heads. I wouldn't trust them with cracks to the valve seats.

...probably not what you wanted to hear.

Have you make any progress on the front end?


Not to mention the helicoil for 1 plug already.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Temmett
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Joined: April 19, 2010
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Location: Ferndale, CA
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Those adapters that mount to your oil pump studs have mixed reviews. IMO, that's a lot of weight to be suspended by your oil pump studs. Maybe ok for a stocker, but you might want to consider finding a later case with the proper bosses for the mustache bar.

There are a lot of good new heads. I wouldn't trust them with cracks to the valve seats.

...probably not what you wanted to hear.

Have you make any progress on the front end?


I was expecting major problems. The engine never ran great. It's time to bring her back to life. Those cracks look pretty bad to me. Good call on the helicoil, Bobnotch. I was thinking new heads too. I'm learning what I'm looking at as I go. What is the oil pump adapter for? Tried searching it out. Not having much luck.

As far as the front end, I have been persuading the replacement hood to fit. Just about there. Very Happy
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Temmett wrote:
What is the oil pump adapter for? Tried searching it out. Not having much luck. Very Happy


The oil pump "adapter" plate bolts the engine hanger bar to the engine case.

In your case, the adapter was used because the engine block is from a 68 or earlier model, and doesn't have the mounting bosses for the engine hanger to bolt to.
Like Brent mentioned above, it might be a good idea to look for another engine case (with the bosses) to build upon. Ideally, you'd like to find a type 3 case, but, you can use a universal case too.
What I have in my 65 Notch is an all aluminum universal case. I'm also using the engine hanger bar, because of my IRS conversion. Just something to think about.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Temmett
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Joined: April 19, 2010
Posts: 334
Location: Ferndale, CA
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Temmett wrote:
What is the oil pump adapter for? Tried searching it out. Not having much luck. Very Happy


The oil pump "adapter" plate bolts the engine hanger bar to the engine case.

In your case, the adapter was used because the engine block is from a 68 or earlier model, and doesn't have the mounting bosses for the engine hanger to bolt to.
Like Brent mentioned above, it might be a good idea to look for another engine case (with the bosses) to build upon. Ideally, you'd like to find a type 3 case, but, you can use a universal case too.
What I have in my 65 Notch is an all aluminum universal case. I'm also using the engine hanger bar, because of my IRS conversion. Just something to think about.


Thanks for the education, Bobnotch. I always appreciate the help.

My son pulled the left side head and, well, I'm guessing things got just a little hot.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd say that side is a goner. That engine needs a full going thru, with the inside parts needing to be mic'd out. You're looking at a pair of heads, and a P&C set for sure, along with a full gasket kit at minimum.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Temmett
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Yeah, I'd say that side is a goner. That engine needs a full going thru, with the inside parts needing to be mic'd out. You're looking at a pair of heads, and a P&C set for sure, along with a full gasket kit at minimum.


If this baby needs that kind of work, would it be better to go with a whole new engine?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Temmett wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Yeah, I'd say that side is a goner. That engine needs a full going thru, with the inside parts needing to be mic'd out. You're looking at a pair of heads, and a P&C set for sure, along with a full gasket kit at minimum.


If this baby needs that kind of work, would it be better to go with a whole new engine?

Probably. But, you'll have to decide how big to go, how fine you want it balanced, and most importantly, who will build it for you.

Whatever you do, don't let price alone be the deciding factor.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Temmett
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Joined: April 19, 2010
Posts: 334
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Temmett wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Yeah, I'd say that side is a goner. That engine needs a full going thru, with the inside parts needing to be mic'd out. You're looking at a pair of heads, and a P&C set for sure, along with a full gasket kit at minimum.


If this baby needs that kind of work, would it be better to go with a whole new engine?

Probably. But, you'll have to decide how big to go, how fine you want it balanced, and most importantly, who will build it for you.

Whatever you do, don't let price alone be the deciding factor.


I think sticking with as stock a setup as possible is probably the best idea. This is my son's first car and I want him to be able to use the Bentley and The Samba as resources when work needs done. I just ordered an engine from Bus Depot for my Westy. Where would you recommend I start looking for a standard Squareback engine? Great advice on the finances. Price won't be the deciding factor.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Temmett wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Temmett wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Yeah, I'd say that side is a goner. That engine needs a full going thru, with the inside parts needing to be mic'd out. You're looking at a pair of heads, and a P&C set for sure, along with a full gasket kit at minimum.


If this baby needs that kind of work, would it be better to go with a whole new engine?

Probably. But, you'll have to decide how big to go, how fine you want it balanced, and most importantly, who will build it for you.

Whatever you do, don't let price alone be the deciding factor.


I think sticking with as stock a setup as possible is probably the best idea. This is my son's first car and I want him to be able to use the Bentley and The Samba as resources when work needs done. I just ordered an engine from Bus Depot for my Westy. Where would you recommend I start looking for a standard Squareback engine? Great advice on the finances. Price won't be the deciding factor.


Probably someone like VW Paradise comes to mind right off hand in your general area. I only say that, as you really want a "custom" stock engine. Meaning; balanced really well so it'll be smooth as silk, and uses the best quality stock parts they can find. Also, you want someone that will stand behind their work. Another option would be to talk to Steve (aka Clatter on here), as he likes to build engines.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Brent
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Reviving Bettie (69 Squareback) Reply with quote

Aircooled.net has a lot of longblock options. They have an excellent reputation.

Chico is another I'd trust to build me a motor.

Clatter will talk you into a Type 4. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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