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Retsgard
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 16
Location: uk
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 Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| thummmper wrote: |
| has anyone gotten the oe diameter of that hole? |
Anybody?  |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3400
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Radius Rod connection on sub frame |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| I found a thick walled pipe with the correct outer diameter, and a too-small inner diameter. Had it drilled to the precise inner size and cut to lengths to replace my bad ones. Worked fine. |
Thanks for the tip Doug. I have new metal tubes on hand. They came with the Powerflex kit that T3 sells. I'm just glad I caught this before the sub-frame holes became damaged.
I'm bummed out that I couldn't get my hole project finished this weekend but once the new rod shows up it should go fast.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10357
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Radius Rod connection on sub frame |
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I found a thick walled pipe with the correct outer diameter, and a too-small inner diameter. Had it drilled to the precise inner size and cut to lengths to replace my bad ones. Worked fine.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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foodeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Radius Rod connection on sub frame |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
That's exactly what my radius rod sleeve, rod looked like. Wore into the hole at chassis.
I've read that when using a mig to patch holes, one could use copper as backing; the fill won't adhere to the copper.
Given marks comments, in hindsight, I would've just back filled the damaged hole so metal at repaired hole retains the OEM thickness.
Or, use really thin metal to patch area and backfill.
Neil. |
Yup, copper works great as a backer that MIG wire won't stick to, when welding steel. You can buy copper spoons or paddles for doing this in hard to reach places.
_________________
89 Bluestar-2.5 Subaru Powered-RIP
'84 Westy Tiico-daily driver-sold
'82 Caddy diesel-sold
'87 Vanagon Syncro-RIP
'81 diesel rabbit-sold
'82 Vanagon auto-RIP |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Radius Rod connection on sub frame |
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That's exactly what my radius rod sleeve, rod looked like. Wore into the hole at chassis.
I've read that when using a mig to patch holes, one could use copper as backing; the fill won't adhere to the copper.
Given marks comments, in hindsight, I would've just back filled the damaged hole so metal at repaired hole retains the OEM thickness.
Or, use really thin metal to patch area and backfill.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3400
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Radius Rod connection on sub frame |
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I just took on this job and it all went really well until I ran into this.
Being a Rocky Mtn van that isn't driven in winter, it was easy enough to budge my late model radius rods with the help of leverage (standing on the wrench on the passenger side, using a floor jack to lift it on the driver side).
All went well on the passenger side but the driver's side radius bushing was worn through to the point where the rod was gouged and galled from wearing on the chassis. If I would have just used the same lower nut, without trying to take it off the rod, I would have been fine but I wanted to use the new hardware. Trying to do that messed up the rod's thread enough (this picture doesn't show it) that I decided to buy a new radius rod.
I told my wife that I saved our lives by removing a severely word radius rod - yep, I'm a hero.
So, if you're doing this job, maybe inspect your threads where they go through the chassis, and if they're messed up maybe consider keeping that old lower nut instead of removing it and replacing. Or, you can spend $100 for a new rod and hardware.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| has anyone gotten the oe diameter of that hole? |
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theDrew
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Joined: May 17, 2011
Posts: 1155
Location: Camas, WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I finished replacing the rods last night.
I'm closing the book on this one, I'll just keep any eye on the driver side one.
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Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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Brickwerks
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Joined: April 11, 2010
Posts: 216
Location: West Yorkshire - UK
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Brickwerks
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Joined: April 11, 2010
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Location: West Yorkshire - UK
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
....
As for the hole in the plate, it is supposed to be a bit larger than the metal sleeve because that sleeve isn't supposed to touch it. One of the rubber bushings also has a sleeve on it that is supposed to stick through the hole so the hole needs to be sized for that larger sleeve that is part of the bushing.
Mark
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Cool. This is what I thought and anticipated best I could at the time. Even w/o shims, I'm sure what I did is better than what was there.
This is in NO way a criticism of any suggestions or techniques posted here, but .....
Even with added shims, is it poss. that each bushing won't properly butt up against each other thus allow a small amount of the metal sleeve to be exposed? Even if so, and as per your "rocket science" comment, likely no big deal and kind of a moot thought. 90+ % of that sleeve would be carried by the bushings and IMO, simply filling and shaping the hole with weld might not be stable enough.
@ theDrew
For me, I found there was no cutting on frame required. Just cleaned things up, and had at 'er. Notes I made in my page may shed light on better ways to do it. For me, the only hesitance I had was welding in my carport in a fairly tight space. This was all new to me. I don't think there was a great deal of penetration had but IIRC, the actual sub frame material is sandwhiched together; not a solid piece. e.g. one might get decent penetration, even with a 110AC MIG. My beads were "proud" but in spite of that, the plate is holding thousands of miles later.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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theDrew
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Joined: May 17, 2011
Posts: 1155
Location: Camas, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info.
My 2wd has a more timid life. I'll measure it tonight and see how bad the wear is (maybe i'll throw up a picture) but I'm inclined to just leave it be.
Even if I still had my welder, I'd be really weary of cutting and welding things on the sub frame!
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Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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This matters more in syncros using the full suspension articulation offroad.
If there is play.....other parts will bend and break  |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10389
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it is rocket science given the degree of wear we have seen in vans that still drove ok. The point is to keep the repaired metal plate section close to the same thickness as it was originally. You can't just make it as huge as you like without consequences. The big nuts are supposed to get tightened together, binding their washers to the sleeve ends in the process. You don't want the big nuts to work loose and you don't want to deform the rubber excessively.
As for the hole in the plate, it is supposed to be a bit larger than the metal sleeve because that sleeve isn't supposed to touch it. One of the rubber bushings also has a sleeve on it that is supposed to stick through the hole so the hole needs to be sized for that larger sleeve that is part of the bushing.
Mark
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Hey Mark. Thanks for explaining that. I obviously didn't "see" that.
So assuming I compressed the rubber bushings more than OEM spec, does this:
establish an incorrect torque at each nut?
affect how accurately the front end guy could adjust the castor?
over stress the rubber cause premature wear of bushings?
Apologies for this thread hijack!
Neil. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to, by the time the washers hit the sleeve. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.
Mark
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear. |
Thanks insyncro.
In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame........ |
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Thanks Mark.
That is what I was trying to communicate. |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.
Mark
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve ..... |
In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame.
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Hey Mark. Thanks for explaining that. I obviously didn't "see" that.
So assuming I compressed the rubber bushings more than OEM spec, does this:
establish an incorrect torque at each nut?
affect how accurately the front end guy could adjust the castor?
over stress the rubber cause premature wear of bushings?
Apologies for this thread hijack!
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10389
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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The issue is the length of the metal sleeve. The big washers get tightened against the rubber bushings by turning the big nuts closer together, until the metal washers hit against the ends of the metal sleeve. That sets the compression limit of the rubber bushings. If you make the plate where the hole is thicker then the rubbers gets smashed more than it they were supposed to, by the time the washers hit the sleeve. You would need to make the sleeves longer by the same amount you made the plate thicker by, in order to keep the rubbers at the same degree of compression.
Mark
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear. |
Thanks insyncro.
In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame........ |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear. |
Thanks insyncro.
In doing rough measurements, had hoped that the thin metal I used would still allow the bushings to compress up against each other and "fill" the hole in frame.
GrindGarage: I think the hole in frame has to be the same size as the smaller portion of rubber bushings. e.g. the rod and metal sleeve all "ride" on the bushings which are compressed and held into the hole in frame. Or am I wrong? 
AFAIK, my fix is still working, but at some point I may inspect.
thedrew: my guess is that the amount the hole is ovaled is directly related to how fast the new parts will wear. I guess I'm suggesting that the parts will wear faster than normal.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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If you add material to the frame...the same amount must be added to the bushing sleeve or you will not be able to torque down the bushings.
The movement will allow other suspension parts to prematurely wear. |
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theDrew
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011
Posts: 1155
Location: Camas, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Oh man. I'm not up to that fix. Too bad I just sold my welder!
Mine are not as bad as yours were -- but they're are definently not a perfect circle.
If i just leave it be, whats gonna happen?
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Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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