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1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

STAYGOLD74 wrote:
Very new to all of this, but im going jump right in here -

Bought the upgrade kit for the conversion 1974 Sunbug -
4x130 standard rotors....
Came with all the bearings, races and seals (CIP1)

Races pressed, bearings greased...

I go to tap in the inner seal annnd, there some gaping between the inner bearing and the seal...about 1/8th of and inch....

I take a look at the original drums, no gap...just a nice snug fitted seal that is sitting comfortably in its place.

I checked the bearings - same size as OE....
Checked the seals - same size and style as OE....

I guess my question here would be has anyone ran into this?
toplineParts.com has low profile grease seal for disk conversion # 89-0344
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STAYGOLD74
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

Very new to all of this, but im going jump right in here -

Bought the upgrade kit for the conversion 1974 Sunbug -
4x130 standard rotors....
Came with all the bearings, races and seals (CIP1)

Races pressed, bearings greased...

I go to tap in the inner seal annnd, there some gaping between the inner bearing and the seal...about 1/8th of and inch....

I take a look at the original drums, no gap...just a nice snug fitted seal that is sitting comfortably in its place.

I checked the bearings - same size as OE....
Checked the seals - same size and style as OE....

I guess my question here would be has anyone ran into this?
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

If in europe 1303 came with factory disks why not use those backing plates on disk conversion? Or are they different spindles.
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FreeBug
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

Is it that hard to find stock disc spindle/knuckles in US? I managed to get some here, for my disc brakes. I don't remember where I got the backing plates, but I managed to get them to work, even with thicker, ventilated Karschers.

Disc brakes were a factory option, you could have them if you paid.

Maybe flat-landers don't see the need for discs, but you can get fade with spirited mountain driving.

I once lit a cig off my front brakes, but it was a much heavier vehicle, a Volvo 240, automatic, and I was chasing a Merc down the Alps...I had pulled over when the brakes started to fade.

I was pleasantly surprised that i didn't need to change the master cylinder for the conversion.

I have also used modified type 3 backing plates for beetle discs, can't remember if i did it for the 1303. You need to drill and thread the spindles, though, iirc, for dropped (raised) spindles.

Old disc-ussions are often useful, and if there were no use for old things, I would disappear, and so would my cars Crying or Very sad .
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

H2O, yet, we still resurrect these old threads and, apparently, new folks read them.

They’re sort of like old songs.

Tim
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

DesignBuild wrote:
Not quite true. In Europe all the Kafers as well as the Karmann Ghias could be had with front disc brakes. the 1200 and 1300 models were still available in the 1970s. I have a 1972 1302 (Super) with a 1.3 Liter engine with dual ports. In 1972 you could still buy the 1200 engine even in a Super.

A German acquaintance has pictures of him driving a 1972 1200 that his mother purchased new. It is my understanding that the 1600 engine wasn't all that popular in Europe because of taxes. That made the 1200 and 1300 engine more common.


You're a bit late on this. The last post before yours was in 2015
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DesignBuild
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 super beetle disc brakes in front only - confusion Reply with quote

Not quite true. In Europe all the Kafers as well as the Karmann Ghias could be had with front disc brakes. the 1200 and 1300 models were still available in the 1970s. I have a 1972 1302 (Super) with a 1.3 Liter engine with dual ports. In 1972 you could still buy the 1200 engine even in a Super.

A German acquaintance has pictures of him driving a 1972 1200 that his mother purchased new. It is my understanding that the 1600 engine wasn't all that popular in Europe because of taxes. That made the 1200 and 1300 engine more common.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her74buggy wrote:
Point being even vw installed disc from the factory standard rather than as an option so they obviously thought it was an improved system too, even though the U.S. got jipped by not getting disc like the other countries. I know cost was the company's stated reason but I still don't see how it could have been much higher in the manufacturing cost unless they saved by getting rid of all the front drums they already had in inventory by putting them on the US cars.


Remember, Europe at least still got the 1200 and 1300 standard Beetles, which came with front drum brakes - IIRC, only the 1600cc-engined Beetles in the 70s got disc brakes (whether they be Super or Standard like the 1300S)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her74buggy wrote:
Yep. I knew the answer but I just couldn't find my sarcasm font Wink
Point being even vw installed disc from the factory standard rather than as an option so they obviously thought it was an improved system too, even though the U.S. got jipped by not getting disc like the other countries. I know cost was the company's stated reason but I still don't see how it could have been much higher in the manufacturing cost unless they saved by getting rid of all the front drums they already had in inventory by putting them on the US cars.


The main reason they didn't install discs on US spec cars is because most of the competition didn't either. Never mind that the drum brakes were completely adequate for such a lightweight car, Economy cars of the day were small, didn't have disc brakes, carpeted floor mats, power windows, air conditioning, huge engines, etc, etc. If you were looking for something sportier or with more room, VW was happy to point you to a Type 3 or a Karmann Ghia.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my front disc conversion, I had to practice the two hardline replacements that came with the kit. I blew it and had to get replacement, replacement hard lines. Practice makes perfect!

I don't think you can buy pre-bent hard lines, so you'll have to bend them yourself. Try using coat hangers as a template. Bend the coat hangers to the shape you need, then start to work on your lines, bending them in the shape of your template hangers.. They have to be pretty exact or else you'll have problems fitting the ends of the brake lines into where they need to go--without cross threading, that is. Use the more expensive brake line bending tools.

Take into account that you shouldn't bend the line and then re-bend them in the opposite direction. It weakens the metal. So you have to go slow.

And I didn't install any type of proportioning valve.

Tim
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While trying to gain some general knowledge about braking systems I came across this below. Can someone weigh in on this? Do I need the combination valve since I will be having discs in front and drums and back?

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/master-brake2.htm

Also, I am thinking about replacing all the hard lines as I noticed some severe rust spots on them today. Does anyone know where I can get a kit that has all of the hard lines pre bent for my super? If not, if I get the ones that appear straight from top line, how hard will it be to bend them?

Do I also need to go with new braided lines to my rear drums?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VW's in the 70's were still fighting ralph nader and the corvair issues

VW's have a very poor F_R weight ratio, and traction coefficientcy.

Coincidentally the tire pressures vary considerably front to rear. Partially in attempt to handle emergency avoidance and braking irregularities.

Now consider for some of us old enough to remember day to day use and driving characteristics, will remember a sack of sand in the trunk in some futile attempt to correct the f-R bias.

Now take a car that has poor traction coefficient in the front end and add more braking.

The skid and loss of steering becomes much more prevalent.

Add to that the refusal to adjust the drum brake system and add the inactivity of the rear brakes in the emergency stop and avoidance situation.

And consider the number of bugs stuffed into the car in front.

Or whatever the lack of controlled braking manifests as a shock statement after the effect.

One can adjust the somewhat minimal stock braking system and provide themselves with proportionally designed safe stopping.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. I knew the answer but I just couldn't find my sarcasm font Wink
Point being even vw installed disc from the factory standard rather than as an option so they obviously thought it was an improved system too, even though the U.S. got jipped by not getting disc like the other countries. I know cost was the company's stated reason but I still don't see how it could have been much higher in the manufacturing cost unless they saved by getting rid of all the front drums they already had in inventory by putting them on the US cars.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
So: Has anybody tried fitting a factory Super dust shield onto a US-spec (drum brake) Super knuckle? Conversely, without the dust shield on the conversion kits, is there a noticeable disadvantage?


The factory Super dust shields (which are very different to standard beetle and KG shields) wont fit with aftermarket discs due to the caliper mounts.

I wouldnt lose sleep over them, I took my factory ones off in the 90s to run 14" wheels and they are still not on it now.
I'll refit them one day when I have the discs off but it makes no difference to brakes lifespan or performance, and my bug does a lot of driving on crappy country dirt roads too


Her74buggy wrote:
I wonder why front disk were standard on bugs outside the USA if vw didn't feel the need? They probably would have been an option if it was just a want.


Volkswagen was just under pressure to keep the price low in North America to keep sales going.
Running drums on the front was a way to cut costs and keep the price down without the average joe public even realizing.
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Her74buggy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
Her74buggy wrote:
Slotted is for better cooling. In normal driving there is no need.

One could say this about all disc brake kits for Beetles.


I'll rephrase for you. My reply to him should have been "If you are worried about cost but you are buying disc the extra $80 for drilled or slotted will not add any value to justify the extra money". I think he was already past the disc or drums decision.
You are right though. There's no need for an engine bigger than 1300 either but for some reason vw went bigger. I wonder why front disk were standard on bugs outside the USA if vw didn't feel the need? They probably would have been an option if it was just a want. For that matter why do most cars have disc if it's not an improvement? I dont NEED disc, it will stop eventually most of the time with drums, but it's a huge difference. Smoother stopping, no fade and no adjusting or rebuilding all the time. Yeah, it's a want not a need. My wife needs all the help she can get when she's driving it. For her it was like night vs day.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I don;'t have a SuperBeetle, I've done a few front disc brake conversions for Std Beetles using Ghia components. I've noticed that probably all aftermarket disc brake conversion kits for Super Beetles, as well as for 5-bolt Type 1s (I know, this is the wrong forum) do not have the sheetmetal dust shields that were factory-installed on Ghias. I''m certain that euro-spec factory Supers with discs did have dust shields, but the steering knuckles/hubs could've been different than those for front drums so that the factory shield would not fit a US-spec Super.

So: Has anybody tried fitting a factory Super dust shield onto a US-spec (drum brake) Super knuckle? Conversely, without the dust shield on the conversion kits, is there a noticeable disadvantage?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thumbs up for the Topline kit. Another alternative, high quality kit, is the one sold by Aircooled.net. Worth checking out as well.

-jeffrey
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally Agree on the topline kits and braided stainless lines. A few months ago, I went with Cip1 kit and brackets aren't as good supposedly AND I needed the lines from topline anyway. You will need them, and the $399 topline kit comes with all of that. No hassles or wait for lines to come in separately. That being said, it looks like cip1 has a German made kit with forged/machined brackets and lines too for the same price.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also not recommend slotted and cross drilled discs.
I've got them on mine and like SBD said above they are a bit noisy, my windows are up nearly all the time so I don't tend to notice but the big issue with them is they can't be skimmed if they ever get any run out out.

Cusser wrote:

I don't see real reason to go disc in rear.


In most cases they are overkill, even with the big subi in mine i found the stock front discs and rear drums adequate for daily driving.
I swapped to rear discs which did make a noticeable improvement but it was more for the maintenance free side of things that I made the swap.
I do a lot of miles and the frequent adjusting of drums was a nuisance.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a disc brake kit (for a standard Beetle) and had a lot of problems with it. During the process of trying to figure out why things weren't fitting correctly a problem was found with the rotors and the vender sent me a set of drilled (not slotted) rotors to replace the standard rotors that came with the kit because that was what he had on the shelf at the time. The drilled rotors didn't fix the problem but I did end up trying them on the car for a short period and they made a loud noise as the drilled openings went past the pads in the rotors. It was a sort of whooshing/whirring noise that varied with the speed of the car and got quieter when the brakes were applied. After that, I personally wouldn't want a set of drilled/slotted rotors on my car. Just my experience. Slotted might be different. YMMV. Confused I still have the drilled rotors & would sell them cheap if somebody wanted to go to the trouble of doing the machine work necessary to make them work.

But I DO like the additional stopping power of the (FINALLY working) front disk brakes on my car. Cool
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I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
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