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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Not quite done just yet...... 
Flushing out the rear Brake Lines produced a never ending supply of "Pink" brake cleaner.
Knowing this isn't right and also knowing that the brake pressure regulator is in the line I figured it was worth a look. Unhooking it would also remove the flow obstruction to effective brake line flushing.
Once removed I finished flushing the brake line to the master cylinder and back to the Tee with minimal effort, crystal clear brake cleaner.
The brake regulator itself was half undercoated and half rusty mass.
Plugged up the brake line ports and used gasoline to remove the under coating and then wire brushed the unit.
Still was getting pink when flushing it, this is the source of the pink!
Did some reading...... Big ball bearing inside.... Pishaw! No biggie!
Removed the three bolts but that only gained access to the discharge chamber. Anything under that had no obvious way to get at it and I Wasn't about to destroy the unit!
Inside was coated in pink!
The amount of crud I flushed out was staggering as well!
Cleaned it up, the rubber seal was soft and pliable, a quick coat of clear and ready to install!
This only convinces me more that these old systems are full of crap and are probably the cause of good new cylinder failures.
Dave
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RCB
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Location: San Francisco-Bay Area
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| GREAT.... now we can put this subject to rest !! Lets move on. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Before there is physical carnage....... Let the record reflect that I (Dave) based upon advice recieved here and on my own gut feelings did indeed flush out the Metal Brake lines.
I used simple off the shelf aerosol Brake Cleaner shot through the thin nozzle and through the lines from the Master Cylinder back.
I Refrained from using harsh acids and have suffered no obvious bodily harm.
I am thrilled that I Did this simple cleaning for much Goo came out ...... but happily....... not chunks.
I highly recommend flushing your lines using this quick and easy method BEFORE installing any new hydraulic components. After 30 years.... It is time.
I Also chose to use a simple aerosol clear coat over any suspect rusty spots after wire brushing off the minor surface rust. Doing this, I can SEE the treated pipe.
I am a fan of flushing brake lines and certainly see the value in doing so.
************
Now, you all put down the vials of Caustic Acid and slowly back away before the editing Gods are forced to make a repeat showing here ........
Dave
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
"That I will wire brush off and clear coat to halt any progression."
Black urethane Bedliner would be a much better choice on the steel lines. |
This a bad choice as bead liner would hide any future rust, preventing inspection of the exterior of the lines. A thin coat of a quality paint would be better as it would be better to see any returning rust thru it than bed liner.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
If the vehicle was sitting around for a long time, and I found the garbage pictured floating around in the hydraulic fluid as pictured, I'd be changing the lines also.
I have never heard of cleaning the interior of brake lines, never seen anyone do it, leave it to Dave to come up with this subject matter.
In retort to that thought--I went direct to the high pressure blood vessel--go for the gusto, and clean them with the most aggressive product there is--
I'm not saying I'd ever do it--just mentioning what would do the cleaning the best--and fastest--and completely--if you were into killing some time & energy the acid would do the trick-- |
Acid is a bad choice for cleaning this unless you have a way to passivate the freshly cleaned surface, Whether it is HCL (muriatic acid) or HF (which terry kay also has recommended, but has since been retracted, despite the inherit dangers of using it.)
I have already mentioned on this post that I have cleaned out brake lines, and say it again, I have cleaned out brake lines. So terry kay can't claim he has never heard of anyone doing it anymore if he reads this.
the problem with an acid clean is that you will have flash rust once the acid is removed.
Use what the factory manuals recommend, denatured alcohol.
Terry kays suggestion of using acid is bad advice.
Do not use acid.
furthermore the original poster has indicated that the residue he has removed from the brake line is not attracted to a magnet, indicating that the contamination he has removed is not rust.
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Last edited by bluebus86 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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If the vehicle was sitting around for a long time, and I found the garbage pictured floating around in the hydraulic fluid as pictured, I'd be changing the lines also.
I have never heard of cleaning the interior of brake lines, never seen anyone do it, leave it to Dave to come up with this subject matter.
In retort to that thought--I went direct to the high pressure blood vessel--go for the gusto, and clean them with the most aggressive product there is--
I'm not saying I'd ever do it--just mentioning what would do the cleaning the best--and fastest--and completely--if you were into killing some time & energy the acid would do the trick--
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insyncro
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I would just bend up new lines, replace the cylinders and just clean the p valve.
Mostly labor, the lines are not expensive if you have the tools to bend and flair.
For anyone interested in flushing....a fuel injection pressure cleaner can be adapted to flush hydraulic systems with your choice of solvent.
I have a Snappy....pretty much a HD pressurized container with a gauge and valves.
Hook it up and power the solvent through the lines into a catch can.
I use an Earl's -AN fitting to adapt to the hardlines. |
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Merian
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| not all gunk is magnetic |
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I could.
I'd guarantee Muriatic acid would cook out any crud, fromunda, smega, or whatever is in them lines pretty quick.
However, the lines may disappear right in front of Dave's eye balls--
Poof , their gone.
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Merian
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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1. Ospho is good - but only acts on Fe "rust" and only serves as a primer - needs a top coat
2. we flush brake fluid out to get out the old fluid, which is contaminated with water
3. why do you think any gunk remaining in the lines is magnetic?
4. "you posted all kinds of possible solvents and looked for replies on what to use.
Who in the heck could ever answer that question?"
- anyone who understand chemistry |
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Steve M.
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Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6932
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Paint your metal brake lines with Ospho it there is a light rust on them. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steve M. wrote: |
| The test is at the intersection! |
It sure is!
And rest assured, that after 40+ years fixing cars as an amatuer and as a professional, if I felt the metal lines were at all compromised, I'd be out there right now installing new ones.
The coils of brake line always hang on the wall of the garage and the bubble flare tool is at the ready in the tool box. (Of course I have this inventory on hand! I live in the NE Rust Belt and work on older cars, to not have a roll at the ready would be short sighted)
I'll hazard a guess that my brakes will be cleaner and have more operational integrity than many/most Vangons rolling down the highway right now.
After cleaning the lines and seeing what came out, I am really glad that I chose to flush my lines.
I have also come to believe that early failure of new hydraulic components by so many is not due so much to the crap cylinders being sold to us but rather it may be due to the literal crap we are putting into the new cylinders.
This debris is from our dirty old components located up stream that are not being upgraded or even attempts made to clean them!
Sure, "we" flush that old dirty fluid through the new cylinder after it is installed until it runs clean, but really? One is forced to wonder How much debris is left behind, lodged in by the piston cups and in other nooks and crannies within the hydraulic system.
Doesn't this flushing methodology strike anyone as somewhat archane and backwards?
We all would agree that the following would be absolutely stupid to do......
"Let me put in a new Automatic transmission and I'll drain the old contaminated and burnt oil from the cooler and cooling lines AFTER I get it installed and running! "
Why do we do this with new hydraulic components without so much as a second thought?
Dave
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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"That I will wire brush off and clear coat to halt any progression."
Black urethane Bedliner would be a much better choice on the steel lines.
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Steve M.
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| The test is at the intersection! |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Interesting information Bluebus!
Thanks.
So by this morning my Brake Cleaner has Evaporated from my cups.
Cup 1 is wet Brake Fluid Still
Cup 2 is gooey residue, I imagine the cleaner is gone and what is left is concentrated dirty brake fluid residue
Cup 3 is dry, I agitated the residual solids with my finger to loosen it from the cup bottom and tried the magnet in a baggie trick to test for ferrous residue.
Answer? Nope, not a grain was attracted to my strong magnet in a baggie.
I even tried the magnet on gooey cup 2 but on the paper bottom trying to attract the residue through the paper ....... but no discernible attraction took place.
Verdict??
I'm calling the brake lines good.
I have the fuel tank out so I Was able to do a thorough exterior examination for rust on the brake lines finding nothing beyond a very minor surface dust here and there. That I will wire brush off and clear coat to halt any progression.
I Even pulled them out of the retaining clips where any corrosion would be worse.
I am convinced that my flushing and subsequent magnetic test of the residue shows good internal pipe health.......
Or did I convince myself???   
Dave
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
So.......
Many say to use ............ "Alcohol" .......... for flushing the lines.....
Obviously not Distilled drinking Alcohol ...... though who knows? I've had some bottom shelf Spirits that might be better used for Automobile service!
But what alcohol?
Methanol
Methyl alcohol, or methanol, has a boiling point of 65 degrees Celsius and is flammable. The formula for methanol is CH3OH. Uses for methanol include obtaining formaldehyde, synthetic gasoline, plastic masses and coloring matter. Methanol is poisonous.
Ethanol
Ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, is the alcohol that people can drink. The boiling point is 78 degrees Celsius and is also flammable. Ethanol can be used as a fuel on its own or as a mixture. It will burn to give off carbon dioxide and water. Ethanol is also added to perfumes and cosmetics.
Propanol
Propanol, also known as propyl alcohol, is commonly used as a solvent in everything from printing ink to cosmetics. It is also used in the production of raw materials such as amphetamines. Physical properties include colorless, smelling similar to ethanol with a boiling point of 97.15 degrees Celsius.
Glycerol
Glycerol, which may be known as glycerin, is found today as a byproduct in the manufacturing of soaps and is not poisonous to humans. It can be found in medicines and numerous food products such as ice cream. It is thick in consistency with a sweet taste. Glycerol will turn into a solid once it is cooled.
Butanol
Butanol, or butyl alcohol, is a clear, flammable liquid with a boiling point of 170 degrees Celsius. It is volatile with a strong alcoholic odor. It is used as a solvent for paints and in the production of all sorts of products ranging from safety glass to brake fluid.
Not an Alcohol but a distilled mineral product?
Well, obviously not this one!
Dave |
My Factory manuals say to use denatured alcohol (which is ethanol) for brake system cleaning. that is why I suggest it.
200 proof booze is ethanol, but it is not denatured, it is also usable, but is considerably more expensive than the denatured variety.
Denatured means the ethanol has a toxic chemical in trace amounts added making it unsuitable for drinking, hence Ethanol that is denatured can be sold with no booze tax.
This prevents folks from drinking ethanol that is used in industry as a way of getting around paying the booze tax. Industrial users of ethanol use the denatured type. (well it is supposed to prevent folks from drinking it, some do anyway and end up dead, or horribly sick and injured).
you can buy lab grade ethanol, that is NOT denatured, as some laboratory uses can not have the trace amounts of poison added, BUT you have to have a license to purchase it and keep careful records of its use to avoid the tax.
I recall working in a lab we had a gallon of lab grade ethanol. It was liberated at one of the lab Christmas parties from the locker it was stored in. added a little more kick to the punch and it was tax free. of course I had nothing to do with this highly illegal tax avoiding incident, and frown upon it  Had denatured alcohol been used (which is also tax free) there would have been a lot of dead engineers and scientists after the party.
Ethanol is also called grain alcohol. (Methanol is call wood alcohol, don't drink it, it may blind you if you live)
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
Dave,
Since way prior to serving my GM apprenticeship, when I was just screwing around in the driveway as a kid, or at Cadillac, then Chevrolet, and later on at my own shop, I have never seen any good reason ( nor has anyone else for that matter ) to flush, clean, scrub, or sanitize the interior of any brake lines, or hydraulic lines.
They are bad rusted, cracked broken?
Change them.
Bleed the system, and that's all, that's it.
And I'm not only talking about automobiles, I'm talking about any heavy equipment included.
Flush all of the hydraulic lines on a D-9?
D-8--you gotta be kidding me--
Remove & replace the bad lines, & re-fill, your all done.
How bout a lift cylinder, pump, lines on a straight dump truck or 30 ft dump trailer?
No way.
No flush required-- and these vehicle mentioned above are in one heck of a rougher service arena's, & operate at higher hydraulic pressures than your Vans brakes or clutch.
Your taking a trip into a place that is beyond overkill.
If the lines are all rusted out on the exterior, look questionable, change them.
I feel your talking yourself into an easier path than doing what should be done in making a 100% positive repair by assuming you can clean out the inside of some fuzzy looking hydraulic lines and all will be good.
The low road repair system.
But this is where your mindset is--
" I fix rather than replace" as just quoted from another post on resealing engine water jacket seals.
There are sometimes , and in certain area's of interest where "fixing" just ain't the way to ride Dave--forget the frugal path.
It'll lead to more poorly repaired issues.
But then you'll say--"fix it once "
Not in this area you aren't.
Furthermore, you posted all kinds of possible solvents and looked for replies on what to use.
Who in the heck could ever answer that question?
Nobody.
Because no one in my lifetime or anyone else's for that matter has ever performed such a wacky process.
Get the questionable hydraulic lines outa the van & replace them.
No cleaning needed--load up with hydraulic fluid & go.
"Fix it once" Dave-- |
actually it is a good idea to flush the brake lines every two years. many car makers recommend a similar interval. just bleeding the system wont remove the contaminated fluid. I typically use about two quarts of brake fluid to flush out the system every two years.
When I have converted to silicone fluid on cars I do an extensive clean of the metal lines using solvents and compressed air, as it is important to remove all traces or the DOT3/4 fluid prior to introduction of silicone fluid
many of the heavy equipment lift cylinders do not use brake fluid and hence they don't have the need for regular flushing as the fluid they use is not hygroscopic.
some times non hygroscopic fluid system do need flushing when contamination has entered the system. A while ago I flushed my power steering system, which uses ATF, because the pump had failed and metal bits where in the fluid. I flushed out the old stuff so as to not run metal bits thru my new pump and rack.
so yes there are several good reason to flush the brakes. In fact it is standard recommended practice
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I plan on Using DOT 4 as indicated on the Reservoir.
Anyway......
I figured........
"What's the harm?"
Three cups.....
Cup 1
After gravity draining the RF Wheel, I shot a gentle blast of compressed air through. This is Brake Fluid only...... No solvent.
Cup 2
Using aerosol Brake Cleaner I shot a long blast of cleaner into the pipe followed by a gentle puff of compressed air.
Cup 3
Again using Brake Cleaner followed by a puff of air
Is that rust in the cup or dirty brake fluid residue?
I'll let it evaporate, wrap a magnet in a piece of plastic wrap.... See if it is ferrous or not.
Common sense says......Had I not flushed the metal lines, my new brake fluid would immediately look like cup 2
Dave |
the fluid don't need to evaporate, just runt eh magnet under the paper cup.
that don't look like a lot of rust to me. (if it is rust) See if more comes out,
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Steve M,
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. The brake system is an extremely simple thing. I've heard a people claim the inside of brake lines can break down and cause a blockage in the line that keeps the caliper from retracting. I've heard claims that crud can block a brake line. Rubbish. When you press on the brake, the PSI is such that few people could engineer a blocked line by intentionally fitting something in there that would hold up to the pressure - much less a random something accomplishing it. As the guy from Princess Bride would say "Inconceivable!!" Heh...
Introducing solvents into a brake system using people's random input from the internet is a fundamentally unsound idea. Flow some fresh brake fluid in there and let 'er rip!! |
actually it is not rubbish..... the hoses do become restrictive and do prevent the brakes from retracting after the brake pedal is released. the symptom is dragging brakes and if ignored that may over heat the brake and ruin the caliper rubber parts.
I have personally found this out on more than one car that I purchased used. The problem is not when the brakes are applied, cause the pressures are great and hence the fluid can force its way thru the blocked hose. After the pedal is released, the only pressure for the fluid to flow back out of the wheel cylinder is that of the springs on the shoes or worse still the flexibility of the rubber seals on the caliper pistons. it is not a lot of force at all.
So yes hoses can act as one way valves and that is a fact not rubbish.
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