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dobryan
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djkeev
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| leathersmyth wrote: |
Two years ago, I had filled up and started heading down the road.
(I had changed fuel lines in engine compartment,replaced the plastic rails etc few years before....)
I was about three minutes from the house heading out of town. (live edge of town so takes 30 seconds to hit road..) Looked down and saw the gas gauge dropping like a rock.... Pulled into first side drive and looked under van. Gas was pouring onto transmission. A nice person had a tow rope and towed me back to the house. Once i had back where there was light (it was dusk when heading out) I crawled under the van and what had happened was behind the firewall fitting there is about a 3" or so fuel line attached to the non engine side of the firewall fitting and from there the hard plastic goes to fuel tank. It is a pressure fit/ The hard plastic fits into the standard fuel line and is clamped. What had happened was the hard plastic had popped out of the fuel line and was spraying like a fire hose ( but the van had not gotten up to temp yet) I ordered the gw hard plastic which uses a barb fitting to transition for hard plastic to soft instead of relying solely on a pressure fit to hold together.
So lesson learned that a) not only do you have to replace the fuel lines in the engine bay, B) You also should look behind firewall and replace that little chunk of fuel line that is hidden from sight as well.
After i had replaced hard fuel line, i contacted gw and they said, yes you can just get the transition barb fittings from them as well... |
Yep, that slip/friction-fit connection with no flare is part of my paranoia. I've inspected mine and they're well-connected, but it still worries me some, for exactly the scenario you described.
Regarding just adding a male/male barb fitting between the hard plastic and rubber, I'm not so sure that's better in my mind - I'd be concerned that the old plastic would be brittle enough that the localized forces with fitting the barb to the plastic, and/or the new stress-riser created by the barbed transition, might lead to a crack or longitudinal split in the end of the plastic tubing.
If I were going the route of staying with plastic, I'd probably want to replace it with new nylon fuel line, preferably with a bubble flare on the ends. My aim is to reduce the number of connections in the system, ultimately.
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15391
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I find that many (most) who say "fuel lines were replaced by PO/Garage" don't actually have had that fitting & short 3in section hidden behind the firewall replaced.. I find far too many with stock hose & rusted clamps..
| leathersmyth wrote: |
Two years ago, I had filled up and started heading down the road.
(I had changed fuel lines in engine compartment,replaced the plastic rails etc few years before....)
I was about three minutes from the house heading out of town. (live edge of town so takes 30 seconds to hit road..) Looked down and saw the gas gauge dropping like a rock.... Pulled into first side drive and looked under van. Gas was pouring onto transmission. A nice person had a tow rope and towed me back to the house. Once i had back where there was light (it was dusk when heading out) I crawled under the van and what had happened was behind the firewall fitting there is about a 3" or so fuel line attached to the non engine side of the firewall fitting and from there the hard plastic goes to fuel tank. It is a pressure fit/ The hard plastic fits into the standard fuel line and is clamped. What had happened was the hard plastic had popped out of the fuel line and was spraying like a fire hose ( but the van had not gotten up to temp yet) I ordered the gw hard plastic which uses a barb fitting to transition for hard plastic to soft instead of relying solely on a pressure fit to hold together.
So lesson learned that a) not only do you have to replace the fuel lines in the engine bay, B) You also should look behind firewall and replace that little chunk of fuel line that is hidden from sight as well.
After i had replaced hard fuel line, i contacted gw and they said, yes you can just get the transition barb fittings from them as well... |
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leathersmyth
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2012
Posts: 122
Location: Calgary,Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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Two years ago, I had filled up and started heading down the road.
(I had changed fuel lines in engine compartment,replaced the plastic rails etc few years before....)
I was about three minutes from the house heading out of town. (live edge of town so takes 30 seconds to hit road..) Looked down and saw the gas gauge dropping like a rock.... Pulled into first side drive and looked under van. Gas was pouring onto transmission. A nice person had a tow rope and towed me back to the house. Once i had back where there was light (it was dusk when heading out) I crawled under the van and what had happened was behind the firewall fitting there is about a 3" or so fuel line attached to the non engine side of the firewall fitting and from there the hard plastic goes to fuel tank. It is a pressure fit/ The hard plastic fits into the standard fuel line and is clamped. What had happened was the hard plastic had popped out of the fuel line and was spraying like a fire hose ( but the van had not gotten up to temp yet) I ordered the gw hard plastic which uses a barb fitting to transition for hard plastic to soft instead of relying solely on a pressure fit to hold together.
So lesson learned that a) not only do you have to replace the fuel lines in the engine bay, B) You also should look behind firewall and replace that little chunk of fuel line that is hidden from sight as well.
After i had replaced hard fuel line, i contacted gw and they said, yes you can just get the transition barb fittings from them as well... |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52486
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
in my brother's burned van that we brought back to roadworthy
those vinyl hoses were melted on the ends from the fuel induced fire over the transmission..
now don't get all scared, the fire was mechanic error not some failure of the parts..
long story short the ends of the vinyl lines were melted..
when we clipped them fuel ran out..
IMO they burned/melted and sealed themselves..
now I don't feel that they are rodent proof. but I haven't had to deal with that yet, and we have had vans with rodent chewed wires and foam sound padding. |
It is my understanding that this is what they are supposed to do, seal themselves off when a fire first starts. Unfortunately I don't think this is what actually happens, at least not very often. I think I would be adding a check valve at the fuel tank end of the return line whether I kept with the original plastic or went to metal lines. |
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15391
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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in my brother's burned van that we brought back to roadworthy
those vinyl hoses were melted on the ends from the fuel induced fire over the transmission..
now don't get all scared, the fire was mechanic error not some failure of the parts..
long story short the ends of the vinyl lines were melted..
when we clipped them fuel ran out..
IMO they burned/melted and sealed themselves..
now I don't feel that they are rodent proof. but I haven't had to deal with that yet, and we have had vans with rodent chewed wires and foam sound padding.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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<<Fuel hose sags and can get snagged on a spinning axle or drape against exhaust. Tie them up good and you're golden! (Though poorer, good fuel line ain't cheap) >>
Synflex fuel line is no bargain, but pretty much bullet proof.
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rubbachicken
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Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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i've not heard ever that there has been a problem with the hard plastic lines, only if or when some fool has used garden hose pipe clamps and has over tightened them, at that point i would cut them back, but only to cut off the damaged pipe.
there are other areas that could use improvement over what VW did, those pipes are not one of them
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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takeiteasy
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Joined: August 11, 2016
Posts: 169
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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Are there any issue removing the plastic and using the german rated fuel lines straight from The filter to the firewall fitting? I wouldn't mind eliminated the additional connections.
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Merian
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Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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to get back On Topic...
Porsche used those hard plastic fuel lines in 1975 and they still work just fine today. Assuming VW did not find some horrid 3rd World country to make inferior ones 15 years later, you are fine.
The Vanagon has plenty of real manf. defects and aged things to work on (see my sig.). I don't think this is one to worry about.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32989
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| timichango wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
| Honestly, in Nine years I've personally changed my views on many things in life. |
Oh, no doubt. It's not everyday that you get to poll someone on why their opinion has changed on a particular subject, particularly after nine years. I figure there's got to be some valuable insight behind the change of mind, so worth asking.
| djkeev wrote: |
| Feeling that Vanagons were the low point of VW as a Company being one of those things. |
Hahahahah... wait, so which side of that opinion are you currently?  |
Honestly?
For a long time I viewed the 1966 Beetle as the high point of VW.
They perfected the 6volt system!!
1967 runs a very close 2nd but Oh! those 12v systems......
68 was the beginning of the end with extensive plastic use, emission crap, giant fugly bumpers, etc.
I wasn't a fan of late Bays with the 2.0 Air Cooled and then they brought out the Vanagon! What a horrible horrible thing they created!!!! Then they made it a water pumper!!!!!! UGH!!!!
I've obviously changed my mind but it took DECADES to do so.
Dave
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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"Why the snark? "
It was in the back of my mind--sounded good at the time.
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timichango
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Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
I didn't ever suggest copper, nor would I ever use copper fuel lines.
You can, I wouldn't.
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The copper was in response to another user, who suggested copper, not to you... hence why I quoted that user, and not you.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
I would use reinforced parker fuel line as I suggested.
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Noted. Why Parker, specifically, and not something like the Gates Barricade MPI hose? That's what's available at my local industrial/automotive supply shop, and which I've been using for the shorter hoses, and comparing the specs on it to the fuel lines in the Parker catalog, it seems pretty comparable.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
What exactly are looking for here ??
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I thought I was clear in my original post: I'm looking for ideas — specifically about what to expect from the process, and what the optimal solution overall might be. For what it's worth, your input was helpful.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
Go ahead, do what you want.
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I plan to — once I figure out what I want to do. Hence the information-gathering thread here. I'm evaluating the options.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
Run bamboo tubing to & from the engine.
Sounds like an idea.
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Why the snark?
| Terry Kay wrote: |
| Syn flex would be good too. |
I'll look into it. Thanks.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I didn't ever suggest copper, nor would I ever use copper fuel lines.
You can, I wouldn't.
I would use reinforced parker fuel line as I suggested.
What exactly are looking for here ??
Go ahead, do what you want.
Run bamboo tubing to & from the engine.
Sounds like an idea.
Syn flex would be good too.
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| TKentT wrote: |
I think that practice likely changed due to costs - both in materials and assembly effort...
Extensive use of rubber and plastic is simply cheaper.... |
...you're almost certainly correct. I hadn't thought about the soaring price of copper, and the ubiquity of plastics (funny, given our family business was plastics for a few generations).
I will say, however, having bent my fair share of both copper and stainless in other applications, that stainless will tolerate a lot more manipulation (which translates to vibration in this context) before cracking or tearing apart.
Whether it matters in this context, though? You're probably right, and it probably doesn't.
I'll wager stainless is cheaper than copper these days too though!
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Honestly, in Nine years I've personally changed my views on many things in life. |
Oh, no doubt. It's not everyday that you get to poll someone on why their opinion has changed on a particular subject, particularly after nine years. I figure there's got to be some valuable insight behind the change of mind, so worth asking.
| djkeev wrote: |
| Feeling that Vanagons were the low point of VW as a Company being one of those things. |
Hahahahah... wait, so which side of that opinion are you currently?
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Last edited by timichango on Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TKentT
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Joined: March 03, 2013
Posts: 232
Location: Sevierville TN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| timichango wrote: |
I'd actually initially considered copper (cunifer, actually, which is a copper alloy tubing), but subsequently read some stuff on other forums that asserted that it — like alu tubing — tends to work-harden with vibration, and wind up getting brittle and cracking in much the same way. Apparently that's exactly why it eventually fell out of favour in broader usage?
Not sure — I'm just parroting what I've read. Given the fact copper line can apparently also oxidize, though, and that some of the coated annealed steel lines are supposedly stupid-easy to bend, and more or less corrosion-impervious, I'm not sure about the copper/cunifer.
I wouldn't anticipate needing to sweat any joints, but I have a small O/A brazing setup in my garage (I occasionally build cromoly touring racks for bicycles as a hobby), so I could join stainless as well if it came down to it using safety-silv 45. |
Copper fuel lines were mounted solidly to frame rails, etc., and rubber lines were used for flexible connections, similar to how brake lines are used. Typically copper lines ran from the tank to the engine compartment, then rubber to the mechanical fuel pump to handle engine movement and vibration, then metal from the fuel pump to the carb. The copper lines were mounted with brackets to minimize movement and vibration...
I think that practice likely changed due to costs - both in materials and assembly effort...
Extensive use of rubber and plastic is simply cheaper....
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I can change my mind on a lot of things too in 9 years.
I don't think it's a bad idea, I simply think now that since then there is better ways to get the job done.
If you have a burning desire to bend some stainless tubing to & from the engine bay, nothing wrong with that thought.
There are all kinds of products that is easier to use, that will give you the same or better results, easier.
The worst portion of the stainless installation would be to isolating it from the frame, etc, from vibration.
Harmonics, rubbing, you know the drill.
I don't have a parker hose catalog here, but I know with a phone call or a visit to a parker dealership, they would be more than happy to accommodate your inquiries on bullet proof fuel line.
It will probably cost more than the stainless.
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