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pros and cons of the Audi V6 conversion.
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: pros and cons of the Audi V6 conversion. Reply with quote

Why isn't the audi V6 conversion as popular as some of the subaru conversions? Theres gotta be a downside that I'm missing here.

- The engines can be had very cheap and still are somewhat sourceable.
- The engine has a pretty good reputation.
- It can be made to fit in the engine compartment without modifying the decklid.
- They can be mounted to the vanagon transmission with either an adapter or a SA/TDI bellhousing.
- There is very little wiring/harness work
- Good power increase:
# 2.8L / 169in3 / 2771cm3 displacement
# Maximum output: 174bhp DIN (128kW) @ 5500rpm
# Maximum torque: 250Nm (184ft. lbs.) @ 3000rpm
# Maximum engine speed: 6700rpm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





I know they are pretty heavy. I'm not sure what kind of mpgs you can expect, but it can't be worse than my current 15mpg. I know theres a lot more support nowadays for the subie... and one would have to fabricate an engine carrier mounting system and a custom exhaust... but those were required in the early subie days as well. why didn't this catch on?

Noise and vibrations?
Poor mileage?
too heavy?
poor torque curve for the van?
too tight a fit?


Here's some light reading:

http://www.12v.org/engine/

http://volksweb.relitech.com/rfeussner/busumbaueng.htm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390973
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm, that image shows a fairly large lump into the passenger compartment, with the engine lid raised like 6inches

if you lowered it that far to fit you'd have other ground/axle/shift linkage issues to overcome.

and while you may percive alot of the engine swap DIYers, most of them go with premade accessories. ie. Exhasut, intake, engine mounts. few have the fabrication skills and resources to truely DIY an engine swap top to bottom.

all in all the extensive support of the shops & individuals doing the subie 2.5 will keep that a leader in the engine swaps for vanagons. with Bostigs coming up better each release.

Dan in NY
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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there aren't too many pics of this conversion on the net.

I saw one once that had the engine hatch in place without mods... it was on a syncro which wants the engine lower than 2wd.

I'm more curious why some of the shops and vendors that promoted conversions chose to mass produce subaru conversion parts when this would have been a cheaper alternative... or maybe not?
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my local craigslist hqas alot more Subaru donors forsale then Audis with the V6. even in the pick-a-part yards alot more subie to Audi ratios.
and it all probably started because the 1st someone picked a subaru as it's a reliable, sufficient, and small sized engine, the rest of us mostly followed suit..

I am curious to the Audi V6 as I'm in the process of completing a Eurovan 2.5 swap. I'll keep my eyes open for any scrap audi V6s..

I do know the Audi V8 doesn't fit the 5cyl bellhousing.. else i'd have ideas for that 3.6 under my bench.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.

Yes, i hear that they are pretty reliable, now, are they easy to find?

Why would someone want a cheap conversion? People like expensive one, they feel it's more solid, tested and reliable.

No camper owner want a raised lid. Unless i miss something it's raised on both picture. The one that invest in expensive conversion have camper at 90%. They feel that their van worth more money than a normal passenger van. Less afraid to invest.

People are afraid of conversion in general. The more they see some the more they feel confident.

Subaru didn't modified their engine to trany mating surface since the 90'. So it's like 20 years. Same goes for engine mount location. In other words, if your 2.2L is dead you can take most conversion part and put a 2.5L.

It's flat and it feel like it's meant to go there.

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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:
It's flat and it feel like it's meant to go there. Ben

and the 3.3 SVX is just plain Secsi Wink
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, its definitely the boxer quality that sets the subaru's apart.

I can't find any pics of an audi v6 that fits under the hatch. i definitely saw one in person once, but now i question how it was done. i guess if it doesn't fit under the hatch its just as good as putting any other v6 in there with an adapter plate...which is probably cheaper than the SA bellhousing... and easy to obtain.

don't get me wrong here. I have a nice low miles SVX engine stored away waiting patiently to be installed in my syncro Smile

What made me ask is the many posts here of newcomers with no conversion knowledge asking how they can put in a more powerful engine engine in their van on basically no budget. I would think "impossible! find another used waterboxer!"...... and I'm researching for myself, I'm not completely sold on the SVX, might be too much power for me... i just happened to stumble upon the engine and it was too good a deal to pass up at the time.

If you could get a cheap audi v6 donor (I saw a few 2.8L v6's for $200 with around 100k miles) and knew what you were doing, you could pull this off on a low budget.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not meant as a highjack, but for comparison here is an Audi V8 into 2wd vanagon. I need to get pics of finished project (has been done for a while now). A bit of deck work around opening, not much though and not *that much* engine height increase.
I drove the van and what I noticed immediately was the quietness, smoothness, and power Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the slickest swap I've seen in a long time. Nice work.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to clarify, V8 swap is not mine (sigh) its Russ Sherman's, of Autospiel in Victoria, B.C.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
..I do know the Audi V8 doesn't fit the 5cyl bellhousing.. else i'd have ideas for that 3.6 under my bench.


How did you come to know this? 'Cause it's not correct.

There are plenty of originally 5 cylinder powered Audi's running around with V8 swaps on the stock transaxle and bellhousing.

It's just a matter of getting the right pilot shaft bearing and flywheel.

http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_64&products_id=18554
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ's V8 swap uses a SA bellhousing mated to a euro 5spd. Very smooth & revvy motor. Its got a light flywheel thats a bit hard to get used to, i'm used to diesel idle torque tho.

FWIW the V6 is a pretty popular swap down there (SA & Zimb). Every now & then a SA van is posted on the classifieds here with a V6 swap. Of course pretty much all to their vans have raised lids anyway.
(Russ is from Zimb BTW).
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well guess i'll have to go back out to the garage and pull out the motors.

but when I pulled the 3.6 V8 and compared the BH pattern to my I5 adapter plate there weren't enough common bolt mounts. maybe it was a rough night or long weekend.. coulda held it up to the engine bassakwards Confused
i have 4 5cyl turbos & the one V8 along with trans and such in the garage now. not to mention the 2 5000 CS turbo quattros i drive daily as winter rats. and when searching the Audi community there's alot more misinformation then quality information out there.. I certainly do not want to contribute any misinformation.

and well a V8 in the back of my project is why it's out there.. but I'm wanting to slip it into a fastback Twisted Evil

onwardtothestars wrote:
danfromsyr wrote:
..I do know the Audi V8 doesn't fit the 5cyl bellhousing.. else i'd have ideas for that 3.6 under my bench.


How did you come to know this? 'Cause it's not correct.

There are plenty of originally 5 cylinder powered Audi's running around with V8 swaps on the stock transaxle and bellhousing.

It's just a matter of getting the right pilot shaft bearing and flywheel.

http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_64&products_id=18554

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onwardtothestars
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
...when searching the Audi community there's alot more misinformation then quality information out there.. I certainly do not want to contribute any misinformation.


Agreed, but I rarely get BS here.... www.motorgeek.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
I do know the Audi V8 doesn't fit the 5cyl bellhousing.. else i'd have ideas for that 3.6 under my bench.


Just to update this, until 3 months ago I was working on fitting an Audi A8 Quattro ABZ 4.2 engine into a Syncro using the South African bellhousing.

They do fit up and only require one extra bolt hole drilling below the startermotor.

MG
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm O Kvery nice to know, I'll have to drag those 2 pieces together.
why until 3 months ago? and any images of pieces/parts/process?
what engine management?

Dan

SyncroGhia wrote:
danfromsyr wrote:
I do know the Audi V8 doesn't fit the 5cyl bellhousing.. else i'd have ideas for that 3.6 under my bench.


Just to update this, until 3 months ago I was working on fitting an Audi A8 Quattro ABZ 4.2 engine into a Syncro using the South African bellhousing.

They do fit up and only require one extra bolt hole drilling below the startermotor.

MG

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a change of career and have had to sell off the projects to finance it.

I was running the stock injection setup with ECU, immob ECU, key and transponder etc.

I put up a load of photos on motorgeek while I was trying to get around the immobiliser but I eventually got the software to be able to get the codes out of the ECUs and get them to work together.

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32611&highlight=syncro

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Oh, you can't use the bolt hole at 10 oclock as the cylinder is just behind the blank hole but it does work with the dowell for location.

The engine is now sold to another vanagon nutter who's installing it with a 996 (porsche 911) gearbox... which has a very similar bolt pattern but needing a few more mods like clearance for the startermotor etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just realising we're slipping off topic a bit here.. I agree the Audi V6 2.8 12V is a great engine and a friend and I pulled this very engine out of an old Audi 100 Quattro just last week for his Vanagon Doka.

I also like the 2.8 30V and looking at this having 195bhp and possibly more economical? but I have heard of some of the early engines having head gasket issues.. not sure if this is true or not as I've no experience of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: pros and cons of the audi V6 conversion. Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
Why isn't the audi V6 conversion as popular as some of the subaru conversions? Theres gotta be a downside that I'm missing here.

- The engines can be had very cheap and still are somewhat sourceable.
- The engine has a pretty good reputation.
- It can be made to fit in the engine compartment without modifying the decklid.
- They can be mounted to the vanagon transmission with either an adapter or a SA/TDI bellhousing.
- There is very little wiring/harness work
- Good power increase:
# 2.8L / 169in3 / 2771cm3 displacement
# Maximum output: 174bhp DIN (128kW) @ 5500rpm
# Maximum torque: 250Nm (184ft. lbs.) @ 3000rpm
# Maximum engine speed: 6700rpm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





I know they are pretty heavy. I'm not sure what kind of mpgs you can expect, but it can't be worse than my current 15mpg. I know theres a lot more support nowadays for the subie... and one would have to fabricate an engine carrier mounting system and a custom exhaust... but those were required in the early subie days as well. why didn't this catch on?

Noise and vibrations?
Poor mileage?
too heavy?
poor torque curve for the van?
too tight a fit?


Here's some light reading:

http://www.12v.org/engine/

http://volksweb.relitech.com/rfeussner/busumbaueng.htm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390973
you'd go this route when the 1.8t has + power and better fuel economy. Honestly I've never met one person who's done the 1.8t swap thats not 100% satisfied. I have talked to people with other swaps who aren't for one reason or another.....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i did an Audi v6 i'd wana do the 2.7t from the s4 Twisted Evil
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