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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2116
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: '65 Sunroof Notch |
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Ok so my plan is to have this notch ready by next years Classic. O know this car has rust issues as it has little metal left in the rockers and many signs of other rust spots. I removed the front fenders and here is what I see.
Any thoughts on a starting point. Thinking it might be best to buy a parts car and cut and weld. I'm a novice welding but am encouraged by the builds I have seen here (bobnotch). I'm hoping to have teh metalwork done by the time Christmas come around then move to bodywork and paint. We will see what happens. 
_________________
'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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notchback
Insensitive Jerk
Joined: December 16, 2003
Posts: 7024
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'm about to cut up a couple of '65's. Let me know what you need.
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13546
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that my buddy Jason mentions to everyone, is that with the rust you can see, there is always a ton more you can't see. You can see his excellent work (that may seriously be an understatement) in the readers rides threads, his samba name is theresurectionproject.
That said, a '65 sunroof notch is definetly worth fixin up, so I wish you the best of luck. Welding is a lot of fun, its the rest of it like grinding welds, cutting pieces etc that is the most time consuming. I took welding classes at the local Junior College when I was starting, and told the instructer I wasnt really interested in heavy duty welding, just sheet metal welding for car restorations. He set me on a Lincoln SP135+ welder ( the same that body techs have to use for the ICAR exam) and gave me a different set of goals for the semester than the rest of the students. He taught me a lot, I highly recommend something like that to hone your skills. It made me good enough that I would come home and show my dad (trained welding inspector) and he was really impressed with the progress and quality after class was over
Practive makes perfect. It's only metal, it can be cut and re-welded if you mess it up 
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23384
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I can try and give you encouragement Jack. Your goal is achievable, but it'll require you to spend a lot of your free time to do it (think Krunchy).
That said, get a couple of complete rocker assemblies from someone (IF possible, have them go 1/2 way up the door openings, as you can trim them down), and have them sandblasted and sealed in epoxy primer before you do anything with them.
Next, finish the disassembly of the car (don't pull the body from the pan yet), so you have a good idea of where all the rust is. Add some bracing around the door openings, to help hold it in place (for when you do seperate them). Depending on where else you find rust, you might want to get the car media blasted (and ideally sealed in epoxy), to save what's left.
Sunroof cars like to rust around the sunroof opening, the "C" posts, and the drain tray. They also like to go in the lower "A" posts where the doors bolt on. The lower hinge (and below it) takes the worst of it, because that's where the water runs to. Add in that the wiring harness goes into the front of the left rocker, and you see even more rust there (why the left is usually more rustier than the right).
If the only rust you have IS the rockers and that front wrap section, consider yourself lucky, as I've seen worst, and delt with worse. My 65 Sunroof Notch was also gone around the head light buckets, the rear edge of the front fenders, the lower 2-3 inches of both rear fenders, the botton 2 inches of both hoods, the lower rear window sealing lip was gone, and both "C" posts needed all 3 layers rebuilt, not to mention repairs to both corners of the drain tray, and holes in the roof above them along with the front edge of the sunroof opening. I almost made a convertible out of it, due to the rust, but it was a sunroof car, so I fixed it.
Good luck with your project, and keep us updated with your progress. This should be an interesting project.
P.S. What kind of welder do you have? Hopefully is a good one with gas, as you'll need it. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22659
Location: Escondido CA
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turbomicrowaves
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1139
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Get er done, Jack.
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'68 Sunroof Squareback
"There are no pieces"
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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chaosisme
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 1245
Location: Orange County, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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You found that for $500? 
_________________
'65 1500 S [quareback]
'68 FI Sunroof Squareback
'70 Westy
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2116
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
I can try and give you encouragement Jack. Your goal is achievable, but it'll require you to spend a lot of your free time to do it (think Krunchy).
That said, get a couple of complete rocker assemblies from someone (IF possible, have them go 1/2 way up the door openings, as you can trim them down), and have them sandblasted and sealed in epoxy primer before you do anything with them.
Next, finish the disassembly of the car (don't pull the body from the pan yet), so you have a good idea of where all the rust is. Add some bracing around the door openings, to help hold it in place (for when you do seperate them). Depending on where else you find rust, you might want to get the car media blasted (and ideally sealed in epoxy), to save what's left.
Sunroof cars like to rust around the sunroof opening, the "C" posts, and the drain tray. They also like to go in the lower "A" posts where the doors bolt on. The lower hinge (and below it) takes the worst of it, because that's where the water runs to. Add in that the wiring harness goes into the front of the left rocker, and you see even more rust there (why the left is usually more rustier than the right).
If the only rust you have IS the rockers and that front wrap section, consider yourself lucky, as I've seen worst, and delt with worse. My 65 Sunroof Notch was also gone around the head light buckets, the rear edge of the front fenders, the lower 2-3 inches of both rear fenders, the botton 2 inches of both hoods, the lower rear window sealing lip was gone, and both "C" posts needed all 3 layers rebuilt, not to mention repairs to both corners of the drain tray, and holes in the roof above them along with the front edge of the sunroof opening. I almost made a convertible out of it, due to the rust, but it was a sunroof car, so I fixed it.
Good luck with your project, and keep us updated with your progress. This should be an interesting project.
P.S. What kind of welder do you have? Hopefully is a good one with gas, as you'll need it. |
Wow Bob you really know these cars. I read your post sitting next to Pedro and I was laughing because you named all the problem areas. I think that I will be buying a dry parts car to donate the metal. The area front of the door hinges is thin but I think I might just fiberglass it because I'm sure I can't gain enough skill to tackle it. I will be posting many pictures as I try and make a plan on how to get each part done. I have a Lincoln 140 with gas, I think it should be sufficent.
_________________
'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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chaosisme
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 1245
Location: Orange County, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ibjack wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
I can try and give you encouragement Jack. Your goal is achievable, but it'll require you to spend a lot of your free time to do it (think Krunchy).
That said, get a couple of complete rocker assemblies from someone (IF possible, have them go 1/2 way up the door openings, as you can trim them down), and have them sandblasted and sealed in epoxy primer before you do anything with them.
Next, finish the disassembly of the car (don't pull the body from the pan yet), so you have a good idea of where all the rust is. Add some bracing around the door openings, to help hold it in place (for when you do seperate them). Depending on where else you find rust, you might want to get the car media blasted (and ideally sealed in epoxy), to save what's left.
Sunroof cars like to rust around the sunroof opening, the "C" posts, and the drain tray. They also like to go in the lower "A" posts where the doors bolt on. The lower hinge (and below it) takes the worst of it, because that's where the water runs to. Add in that the wiring harness goes into the front of the left rocker, and you see even more rust there (why the left is usually more rustier than the right).
If the only rust you have IS the rockers and that front wrap section, consider yourself lucky, as I've seen worst, and delt with worse. My 65 Sunroof Notch was also gone around the head light buckets, the rear edge of the front fenders, the lower 2-3 inches of both rear fenders, the botton 2 inches of both hoods, the lower rear window sealing lip was gone, and both "C" posts needed all 3 layers rebuilt, not to mention repairs to both corners of the drain tray, and holes in the roof above them along with the front edge of the sunroof opening. I almost made a convertible out of it, due to the rust, but it was a sunroof car, so I fixed it.
Good luck with your project, and keep us updated with your progress. This should be an interesting project.
P.S. What kind of welder do you have? Hopefully is a good one with gas, as you'll need it. |
Wow Bob you really know these cars. I read your post sitting next to Pedro and I was laughing because you named all the problem areas. I think that I will be buying a dry parts car to donate the metal. The area front of the door hinges is thin but I think I might just fiberglass it because I'm sure I can't gain enough skill to tackle it. I will be posting many pictures as I try and make a plan on how to get each part done. I have a Lincoln 140 with gas, I think it should be sufficent. |
If youre going to fix all the other problem areas, I wouldnt go for fiberglass, it always seems like a stop-gap fix. If youre going to fix all the other rust, then fix it all right.
The only reason I say that is because the PO of my car fixed the fenders with fiberglass and its just...shitty.
_________________
'65 1500 S [quareback]
'68 FI Sunroof Squareback
'70 Westy
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2116
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree but I need to take pictures and show the areas. Maybe thr pros can walk me through it.
_________________
'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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chaosisme
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 1245
Location: Orange County, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ibjack wrote: |
| I agree but I need to take pictures and show the areas. Maybe thr pros can walk me through it. |
Bobnotch to the rescue!
_________________
'65 1500 S [quareback]
'68 FI Sunroof Squareback
'70 Westy
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23384
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| ibjack wrote: |
| Wow Bob you really know these cars. I read your post sitting next to Pedro and I was laughing because you named all the problem areas. I think that I will be buying a dry parts car to donate the metal. The area front of the door hinges is thin but I think I might just fiberglass it because I'm sure I can't gain enough skill to tackle it. I will be posting many pictures as I try and make a plan on how to get each part done. I have a Lincoln 140 with gas, I think it should be sufficent. |
Just personal experience. Like I said above, that's where I found all the rust in my 65 Sunroof Notch, and it was a Texas car.
A dry parts Notch (or even an early Square) donor car would be a great way to go, as you'll have the nessessary metal you'll need. I only say that, as the early 3 bolt stuff is similarily constructed, versus the later 2 bolt stuff. Plus you really don't want to have to deal with doing a hinge conversion if you can. Also, the donor car's body pieces will have all the right shapes that you'll need.
Like Chaos said, you don't really want to use fiberglass, and IF you get a donor car, you should be able to fix it right. That's the best way to go too, fixing it right. It might take a little longer, but the end result WILL be worth it.
If you need some help walking you thru some spots, just let me know, and we'll get you thru it. The Lincoln 140 (with gas) is a nice little welder, and with some practice, should be all the welder you'll need to rebuild the car. You can even practice on some of the old metal you cut out. For really nice welds, grind the paint off, and it'll lay down beautifully. And since you have Pedro around, he can even give you some welding tips as well. But remember to have fun with it, otherwise it'll just be another job. If needed, step back for a little while, and then come back to it fresh, that way it won't be work. It's hobby, treat it as such!! 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4507
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ibjack wrote: |
| Wow Bob you really know these cars. I read your post sitting next to Pedro and I was laughing because you named all the problem areas. I think that I will be buying a dry parts car to donate the metal. The area front of the door hinges is thin but I think I might just fiberglass it because I'm sure I can't gain enough skill to tackle it. I will be posting many pictures as I try and make a plan on how to get each part done. I have a Lincoln 140 with gas, I think it should be sufficent. |
A dry parts Notch (or even an early Square) donor car would be a great way to go...
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Whoa, buddy! I claim 'dibs' on the early Squares!
This is one of those times I wish the Fasty had 3 bolt doors...they're EXCELLENT parts cars! 
Jack, you've got an ambitious project on your hands but you've also got the king of restoring the dead (Bobnotch) to help you out.
Just say 'no' to fiberglass, you'll regret it later. |
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t3kg
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22659
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosisme wrote: |
You found that for $500? |
I already had plenty of early notchback projects in my back yard at the time. Jack was due for a solid. Pun intended
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| t3kg wrote: |
| Good luck Jack! Let us know how we can help you. |
X2
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2116
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are differences in hinges and floor heater ducts. With Neil's stuff, you'll be sure of getting an exact replacement instead of a "close, but no cigar".
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2116
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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So I have have been working on the replacements for the rocker panels. I have a set that I cut out of a '69 square years ago. The passenger side looks good but the drivers side needed some work as it was rusty. I bought some outer skins years ago and decided my first big step would be to get this skin welded on. There are some slight difference as Tram mentioned but when you are broke you do what you can (also Neil's cars were rusty in the rockers too) but I think they will look fine. So here is what I started with.
Here is my plan
and now here is where I need help
I'm trying to figure out how to make a panel to weld in. The rounded part I can do but how do I get the 90 ish degree bend at the bottom. I don't have a metal brake but I have access to a bead roller. Thoughts???
_________________
'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22659
Location: Escondido CA
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