To Subaru or waterboxer? That is the question.

[erikgundy98]

If you had a chance to do it over, would you replace your Waterboxer with a Subaru engine again, or do you wish you would have rebuilt the water boxer? Or- if you did replace/rebuild your waterboxer, would you do it again- or do you wish you replaced w/subaru?



The population of people I am interested in asking are those of you who have done the conversion, or rebuilt your wbx. Other opinions are always mixed in forums, but I am trying to get a snapshot of quantitative data. Thanks.
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'90 Multivan Westfalia

[skills@eurocarsplus]

not a Vanagon owner at the moment and honestly live in the bay forum. seeing the lack of support for these power plants and all of the shortcomings they have built in, I think doing the swap is money well spent.

the staggering cost to do a wbx right and still have a mediocre power plant I think is the reason to swap. I have yet to hear anyone regret the decision to go Subaru
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[drj434343]

I'm not sure how valid these data are going to be. Subjectively, the vast majority of people that have either done a subaru conversion or rebuilt their WBX seem to have been happy. Everyone who is satisfied with their respective choice is going to jump to extol their choice's virtues. Thus, the voting may be a competition between how many wbx rebuilders versus subaru converters happen to come across your thread.

The only person that can really offer a qualified response is someone who has done at least one conversion and one rebuild and can weigh them against each other.

[dobryan]

I voted subaru. I have done two conversions. But my most recent was 8 years ago. Back then a 1.8t conversion was in its infancy. If I was going to decide
today I would go 1.8t for the more
flexible emgine. Some more bucks for that engine conversion but spread
over ten years it is no big issue. YMMV.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[Wildthings]

Using the high compression pistons as per the European WBXer will get you some more power for not that much more dough, or you can use 10centlife's method which is to use slightly longer Type1 rods and then cut the tops of the pistons down a bit effectively reducing the size of the dish.

[Tobias Duncan]

Seems like the more power you add the more transmission problems you end up with.
Also there are so many different conversion kits and combinations out there and they seem to change all the time so it can be a nightmare for some mechanic to figure out if the owner does not know all the details.
I think these swaps are fun for the owners that have them done but a nightmare ten years later when the van has changed hands a few times and needs a lot of work.

[ThankYouJerry]

SAH 1.8T
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1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD

[levi]

Whether or not you're happy really comes down to what your expectations are.

One guy enjoys plodding along on side roads, and just wants something reliable.
That guy is ecstatic with the 2.2 suby.

Another guy reads his comments and is crushed when he realizes that he can't accelerate at 85 mph going up a steep mountain road @ 10,000 feet elevation with a 6,000 # syncro.

Folks with low expectations are just generally happier in life.
What's in YOUR expectations?
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[danfromsyr]

besides adding some more power for better drive-ability in traffic and the mtns.
I vote upgrade/swap because of the antiquated engine management of the wbx.. it jut drives me nuts trying to keep them idling happily.
more modern engine I flick the key and it fires & idles perfectly.. the WBX has been a fight for the PO and me to get happy to idle untill it warms up

you can upgrade to an ABA jetta I4 fairly cheap and at 115hp it's not a trans killer.
a 2.2l subaru is ~135hp. a 2.5l Subie ~165hp
the 1.8Ts can be from 150hp,180hp,225hp
I run the 150hp version and am quite happy with it.. I have a 2nd chipped ecu if I want more hp.
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[MarkWard]

Depends on who will fix it when it breaks down. If it is you, then either engine choice will be fine. If you are going to depend on a VW specialist when you break down, you might have better luck with finding someone to work on a non converted vanagon.

It seems over the last year, I am seeing more threads, "my Subaru powered vanagon has problems" posted here. Probably due to the number of Subaru conversions out there. Any engine can leave you stranded eventually.

[Ahwahnee]

I have a 2.2 WBX - the cost was not 'staggering' (darn cheap really) and my driving style is not 'plodding'.

Suby conversions are well-represented here on the Samba -- probably much more so than in real life where most Vanagon owners I meet are running a stock engine.

I have a 50-year-old old car that (when it was introduced) was the fastest production car in the world. Lots of fun to drive, covered 4,400 quick miles in it last month. That was a fine trip but the Westy is a whole 'nuther form of travel and has its own delights.

For me using the cars as designed and intended is more enjoyable (and less problematic) than trying to make them into something else.

[danfromsyr]

if one were worried about 'joe's garage' fixing it when it breaks down
because no matter what it's a ~30yr old car with some degree of aging powerplant.

I'd much rather have a Subie, 1.8T, bostig or at least an ABA I4 swap than a WBX

what mechanics outside of the West coast have seen or dealt with the WBX and it's own list of issues and idiosyncrasies

hell I wouldn't even trust joe's garage to change the WBX waterpump or thermostat..
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[Jake de Villiers]

It seems to me that there are more Subaru powered vans being used as daily drivers. Its easy to like the WBX when you only use it once in a while: the EJ25 is much nicer to live with when you drive it all the time.

Note to Ahwanee: a Westy with 165HP is not a rocket ship and doesn't have to be driven hard. My van is as happy puttering along a rural two lane road at 40MPH (~2000 RPM in fourth) as it is getting me to work at 70MPH.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com

[hdenter]

It also depends on where you are. Here in the USSR, I mean CA (as far as smog rules go) your only Subi option with no problems is the 2.2. It is hardly worth the time and effort to put in that motor when it is not that much different than a well built 2.2 or 2.3 WBXer. As for as engine management for the older WBXer, GoWesty is close to releasing a CARB compliant new FI system. Even at their premium prices, a freshly rebuilt 2.2WBXer with that new system is going to be much more cost effective than having a 2.2 subie rebuilt and swapped in. Keep in mind, the subie 2.2s are not that young anymore either.

As others have said, in the end it is all about what your expectations are and how much you are willing to pay to get there.

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[danfromsyr]

indeed in my 1.8T powered van on my last trip I was traveling under the 80mph speed limits out west and happily at/around 65-70 on east coast interstates..

but I get to keep that speed while climbing hills, and merging onto onramps isn't a stare like a scared cat into the side mirror..

with my stock WBX tintop I have to plan a little bit more.. and worry about the trucks gaining on my rear view on hills.
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[vanagonjr]

[silverbulletuk]

For all it's failings and historical design baggage, I do like the wbx enough to have developed a nice torquey 2475cc (98 x 82) engine that will push a hightop syncro camper to 100 mph, with 80mph being easily achievable on 14" tyres. Same mpg as the MV it replaced.
No further modifications required and no distressed transaxle, just more of what you love and none of what you don't.
The subaru EJ is already a classic engine in it's own right and parts are getting expensive too, making it no better than a wbx in the long run.
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1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com

[Jon_slider]

I had a wbx syncro and when the motor died I had a 2.2 Subaru installed.

I would not do it again because the power gain was insignificant, I still had to use 3rd gear on freeway hills at 5000ft altitude

IF I went Subaru I would ONLY consider the 2.5, but it is not an option in Cali.

otoh, the 1.8T is Cali legal. It does not break syncro trannies.

NONE of the motors I just mentioned will break a syncro tranny. The 2wd tranny is more durable.

People that do their own work are in a separate price class, they will tell you they can do a subie conversion for $3500, but if you ask Buslab:
Prices for the California legal 2.2 conversions start at:
Watercooled Vanagon - $19,600

for that price you might as well just buy a new van, from someone that already took the loss on the conversion cost..

By FAR the least expensive option is to install a used WBX that someone who did a motor swap removed.

I had a conversion shop drop a used WBX into my 85 Westy, at the time the whole job out the door came to $1800. The motor has been running reliably, and leaking oil reliably, for the past 50,000 miles.
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[hickmangene]

[ThankYouJerry]