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CLEMENTINE71
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Joined: May 29, 2014
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Location: Auburn CA
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 Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: Late Caliper Rebuild Kit Recommendations? |
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I'm digging in to my calipers this weekend. After getting some inspiration from the t2 forums and here, I've decided to rebuild rather then replace.
My driver side caliper is chattering and sticking. I have a 71 1/2 with late style calipers - two bleeders.
I've found CIP1 sells late repair kits but at $40 bucks a side. On thee other end I've found RockAuto sells Centric repair kits as well as hardware and everything else at a third of the cost.
Any recommendations here - what should I be looking for in a kit?
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Erik G
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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I used centric stuff from rock auto when I rebuilt all 4 calipers on my '66 Porsche (they are basically the same design) - I had no issues.
I used a grease gun to pop the stuck pistons out. Messy but super effective. I would not take the calipers apart (allen bolts at the half) as there are seals there that are not available.
I found that plugging the various ports with bleeder valves lets you get both pistons out. Meaning take the bridge pipe off and plug them temporarily. And then clean the grease from all the passages (some people have luck with a strong blast of compressed air instead of a grease gun. I did not)
once the piston is out, give it a good polish with some emory cloth or fine grit sand paper. You'll probably need to do some to the bore as well. I used the synthetic steel wool (basically scotch brite pads)
use brake paste on re-assembly - like I said, messy job, but my Porsche calipers were over $1K to buy rebuilt or have rebuilt, so I manned up and did it with some encouragement from friends that had done it
Now is also a good time to paint them...
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BSQUARE
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Joined: November 05, 2004
Posts: 1890
Location: Feeling, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Before ordering your parts, verify that you indeed have late calipers.
Some replacement calipers were made with the two bleeders, to be an either-side fit.
Early calipers have a 2 1/4" mount bolt spacing, and lates have a 3" spacing (center-to-center)
Also, brakes are the last place you want to shop by price.
Best quality brakes are far less expensive than paying to fix your car and the one that stopped yours when the cheap ones inevitably fail
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Erik G
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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good advice, and if you could buy ATE brand rebuild kits, that would be wise, BUT what is it that CIP1 is selling? It's just a couple seals, and they aren't known for carrying top quality either...
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Air-Cooled Head
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| I used a grease gun to pop the stuck pistons out. Messy but super effective. |
Avoid the Mess! 
The little blow-gun thing you get with one of these will accept a brake hard line. Pops stuck pistons on wheel cylinders too, if it's not too badly rusted.
http://www.harborfreight.com/17-pc-air-tool-accessory-kit-61449.html
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Multi69s
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Erik G
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CLEMENTINE71
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Joined: May 29, 2014
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Location: Auburn CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replys!
I'll verify what I have first before ordering per BSQUARE's advice - and to not split the calipers.
Expecting getting the pistons out and in are going to be the PITA portion of the build. If compressed air doesn't get me there, the grease gun plan b sounds like a good idea, thanks for the tip!
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CLEMENTINE71
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: |
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ah-hah, looks like i have early Varga calipers after all. 2 1/4" spacing on the nose. I guess this changes my options 
btw, i was expecting to see the single cross style pad spring, instead i'm seeing two individual springs on either pad. I tested retraction, seems inconsistent, and the springs are wanting to wander to the center of the pad pins. Are these interchangeable with the cross style?
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:04 am Post subject: |
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The Centric kits from Rockauto are actually good quality. Also...keep an eye on Rockauto....as at various times they have different stock. I bought 4 kits for my 412 calipers last year. They were actual FAG kits....$15 per caliper kit.
The hardware kits are excellent as well. Right now they have Centric and Wagner in stock. Both are good but the Wagner has slightly better pins.
The caliper seal kits in stock are Dorman. Generally Dorman makes pretty good parts though their bleeder valves are suffering in quality these days. I have found several that were made defectively.
You can buy just the pins under Wagner, Raybestos and ACDelco brands at Rockauto.
Also....a listing under 1972 411 brake parts notes that Rockauto has replacement caliper pistons in stock for calipers up to 7/72....which is late type 3 and early 914/411....and 8/72 on which are late early and late 412 and late 914. I dont know the quality. I may be ordering a couple just to see.
CENTRIC Part # 14642001 Steel/Aluminum Caliper Piston
Front; From 8/72
$15.68
CENTRIC Part # 14642004 Steel/Aluminum Caliper Piston
I dont know if they are actually steel or aluminum.
Rebuilding calipers is stupid easy...unless they are totally shot and needing "RESTORATION'.....which means re-plating of pistons or bores (if the bores were plated which they usually are not...but most pistons are).
The plating is not especially important. I acid etched the last pair of calipers I rebuilt to remove rust. It took the plating off the pistons. The difference in diameter is less than .0005". Not significant.
I simply polished them mirror smooth with 1500, 2000 and 2500 grit sandpaper.
For those who dont know or realize....the bore of the caliper is simply a smooth guide for the piston. The bore can be very pitted as long as no pits span the seal groove from the bottom side to the top. The seal is between the piston and the seal...not the piston and the bore.
the plating on the piston was partly for anti-corrosion and partly because its easier to polish than bare steel.
Porsche caliper rebuilding for $1000?  .....only because most Porsche owners dont work on their own stuff and have deep pockets....so its what the market will bear.....again....if they have to be replated to get that factory look cad plating....thats what the Porsche concors weenies pay $1000 for.
Rebuilding calipers is dead simple.....except for say...a 914 rear caliper with its screwy E-brake sealing lever.
As for the seals between caliper halves....you need to replace them. The material is EPDM. As chemical and weatherproof as it is....with 40 years of heat cycling and pressure....they are shot. They WILL eventually leak.
Two years ago I had 50 of the caliper half made for about $125. I will have to dig out the company and info and post it.
You guys should simply get together a group buy. The minimum charge for the company was $125....so it just happened to work out to 50 parts.
Ray |
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Erik G
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Porsche caliper rebuilding for $1000? Laughing Laughing Laughing |
yep - including cad plating. to be fair, $800 front and rear, $2K core LOL from one place, $1250 from another supplier with $200 core. One of the problems is the early 65-69 Porsches are ridiculous money now. And most people just bought new or rebuilt calipers, and never turned in their cores...
Which reminds me, I have early 911 calipers sitting here... maybe I need to cash in lol
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CLEMENTINE71
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Location: Auburn CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The Centric kits from Rockauto are actually good quality. Also...keep an eye on Rockauto....as at various times they have different stock. I bought 4 kits for my 412 calipers last year. They were actual FAG kits....$15 per caliper kit.
The hardware kits are excellent as well. Right now they have Centric and Wagner in stock. Both are good but the Wagner has slightly better pins.
The caliper seal kits in stock are Dorman. Generally Dorman makes pretty good parts though their bleeder valves are suffering in quality these days. I have found several that were made defectively.
You can buy just the pins under Wagner, Raybestos and ACDelco brands at Rockauto.
Also....a listing under 1972 411 brake parts notes that Rockauto has replacement caliper pistons in stock for calipers up to 7/72....which is late type 3 and early 914/411....and 8/72 on which are late early and late 412 and late 914. I dont know the quality. I may be ordering a couple just to see.
CENTRIC Part # 14642001 Steel/Aluminum Caliper Piston
Front; From 8/72
$15.68
CENTRIC Part # 14642004 Steel/Aluminum Caliper Piston
I dont know if they are actually steel or aluminum.
Rebuilding calipers is stupid easy...unless they are totally shot and needing "RESTORATION'.....which means re-plating of pistons or bores (if the bores were plated which they usually are not...but most pistons are).
The plating is not especially important. I acid etched the last pair of calipers I rebuilt to remove rust. It took the plating off the pistons. The difference in diameter is less than .0005". Not significant.
I simply polished them mirror smooth with 1500, 2000 and 2500 grit sandpaper.
For those who dont know or realize....the bore of the caliper is simply a smooth guide for the piston. The bore can be very pitted as long as no pits span the seal groove from the bottom side to the top. The seal is between the piston and the seal...not the piston and the bore.
the plating on the piston was partly for anti-corrosion and partly because its easier to polish than bare steel.
Porsche caliper rebuilding for $1000? .....only because most Porsche owners dont work on their own stuff and have deep pockets....so its what the market will bear.....again....if they have to be replated to get that factory look cad plating....thats what the Porsche concors weenies pay $1000 for.
Rebuilding calipers is dead simple.....except for say...a 914 rear caliper with its screwy E-brake sealing lever.
As for the seals between caliper halves....you need to replace them. The material is EPDM. As chemical and weatherproof as it is....with 40 years of heat cycling and pressure....they are shot. They WILL eventually leak.
Two years ago I had 50 of the caliper half made for about $125. I will have to dig out the company and info and post it.
You guys should simply get together a group buy. The minimum charge for the company was $125....so it just happened to work out to 50 parts.
Ray |
Awesome info as always Ray. I'm glad rockauto seems to be the place to go, as their prices aren't stupid like the rest of these vw vendors.
Can you please shed some light on the pad spring styles? I see rock auto only sells the cross style in this kit  CENTRIC 11790004. Haven't had much luck finding the individual springs I found in mine.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Porsche caliper rebuilding for $1000? Laughing Laughing Laughing |
yep - including cad plating. to be fair, $800 front and rear, $2K core LOL from one place, $1250 from another supplier with $200 core. One of the problems is the early 65-69 Porsches are ridiculous money now. And most people just bought new or rebuilt calipers, and never turned in their cores...
Which reminds me, I have early 911 calipers sitting here... maybe I need to cash in lol |
You know...I am all about keeping cars as original as possible....but unless you are trying to win car shows.....paying that kind of money (90% of which is not paying for functionality....its paying for the appearance of a part that will likely not be seen).....is just stupid.
For a fraction of that money....you can buy a pair of Wilwoods that literally bolt on....and as good as the factory brakes were.....they are inferior to what what companies like Wilwood have to offer as replacement.
You can always slap on factory exact if you "must" go to impress the masses....its not like putting a Chinese repop fender on a Porsche...its just bolt on for Gods sake......but to see these people tossing around $1250 for a set of calipers...and then gnashing their teeth and bitching about the cost of their restore and not having the money for parts that are truely hard to get....sheet metal....glass etc.......is just a bunch of morons masturbating over metal.
Its why I spend virtually no time in the 914/Porsche forums. About every other day is a post...."what is this worth". Whatever.... 
Ray |
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CLEMENTINE71
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Location: Auburn CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
.......is just a bunch of morons masturbating over metal.
Its why I spend virtually no time in the 914/Porsche forums. About every other day is a post...."what is this worth". Whatever....
Ray |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhrZxSoLmgA
Ha! friggin awesome
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CLEMENTINE71 wrote: |
ah-hah, looks like i have early Varga calipers after all. 2 1/4" spacing on the nose. I guess this changes my options
btw, i was expecting to see the single cross style pad spring, instead i'm seeing two individual springs on either pad. I tested retraction, seems inconsistent, and the springs are wanting to wander to the center of the pad pins. Are these interchangeable with the cross style? |
This means you have the 66 to 71 style calipers that can be had almost anywhere. These can use use the cross style pad spring too, just by installing it (I have them on my Vargs calipers on my 65 Notch.
However, I don't know of anyone offering a rebuild kit for the Varga caliper. But, you're going to need to measure the caliper piston size (OD), as most of them are 40mm in diameter (ghia size), versus the type 3's 42mm diameter, for your rebuild kits. It might end up being cheaper and easier to just buy another set of calipers. 
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have come to a basic philosophy with calipers on my 412.....which means really its the same for type 3.
If you can get a pair of stock calipef castings that are not horribly pitted on the inside....and you just want to keep stock or near stock brakes......if you take care of them correctly, rebuild them coreectly and maintain them.....they should last you the rest of your life.
The bore does not wear.
Strip them down, strip the paint or coating......a muriatic acid wash will get rid of all the rust.
I got rid of the crappy odd bolts by re-tapping mine for 8mm 1.25 class 10.9 bolts. I replafed all seals. I painted them with 600F+ caliper paint.....both halves seperate, masked and then baked at 200F in a toaster oven. Put them bsck together after polishing bores and pistons. ..with new seals and brake paste. Then installed speed bleeders.....the extra long SB7100 is the part # you need.
Bleed the fluid out every other year....period.... to keep water out and rust out. Rebuild them with a $20 kit per caliper....about every 3-4 years. Sounds excessive....but its cheap insutance to have perfect brakes......and there will be no rust before you are long dead. Ray |
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CLEMENTINE71
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Brent
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
As for the seals between caliper halves....you need to replace them. The material is EPDM. As chemical and weatherproof as it is....with 40 years of heat cycling and pressure....they are shot. They WILL eventually leak.
Two years ago I had 50 of the caliper half made for about $125. I will have to dig out the company and info and post it.
You guys should simply get together a group buy. The minimum charge for the company was $125....so it just happened to work out to 50 parts.
Ray |
I rebuilt some Type 3 calipers a few years ago and was able to find the seals that go between the two halves. IIRC I used Porsche seals that were the same size:
http://www.schnellautosports.com/seal-ring-911-912-914-65-76-schnell.html
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Brent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
As for the seals between caliper halves....you need to replace them. The material is EPDM. As chemical and weatherproof as it is....with 40 years of heat cycling and pressure....they are shot. They WILL eventually leak.
Two years ago I had 50 of the caliper half made for about $125. I will have to dig out the company and info and post it.
You guys should simply get together a group buy. The minimum charge for the company was $125....so it just happened to work out to 50 parts.
Ray |
I rebuilt some Type 3 calipers a few years ago and was able to find the seals that go between the two halves. IIRC I used Porsche seals that were the same size:
http://www.schnellautosports.com/seal-ring-911-912-914-65-76-schnell.html |
Probably.....the Porsche 914 brakes both early and late were taken directly from the 411 and 412 including rotor and bearings.
The seals are out there. If you cant find them. ...have them made. Its pretty easy.
In answer to the other question ....NO...brake paste is NOT silicone. Its specific and dissolvable in DOT 3 and 4 fluid.....silicone is not.
There are several brandw out there. Just make sure it's made for your fluid range. I have some that is a Porsche part #......I bought it because I could at the time. You wont like the stupid cost....but used sparingly like you should. ...the 3/4 oz jar will last me about a decade.
it was about $64.... ......but now I know I have paste compatible with my stuff. Its part # is 000 043 117 00.
You can get it at automobile atlanta as well for about $44 an ounce....probably what I paid for mine but then shipping. Ray |
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CLEMENTINE71
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Location: Auburn CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
This means you have the 66 to 71 style calipers that can be had almost anywhere. These can use use the cross style pad spring too, just by installing it (I have them on my Vargs calipers on my 65 Notch.
However, I don't know of anyone offering a rebuild kit for the Varga caliper. But, you're going to need to measure the caliper piston size (OD), as most of them are 40mm in diameter (ghia size), versus the type 3's 42mm diameter, for your rebuild kits. It might end up being cheaper and easier to just buy another set of calipers. |
Thanks Bob! I indeed have 40mill pistons which to me is both good and bad news. I had my heart set on rebuilding, but the difference in cost between a rebuild and replacement just got a whole lot closer 
btw, air did the trick...
diy kit, including rubber nozzled air gun (gives a nice tight seal), wood shim(cut off home depot paint mixing stick (free  ), and rubber vice grips (which also doubles as a cushion for the piston as it potato-cannons out).
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