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Valve Adjustment Lash Increasing Over Time
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:47 pm    Post subject: Valve Adjustment Lash Increasing Over Time Reply with quote

Type 1 Engine in the 1971 Bus, Specs Below under (1800 Type 1)
Does anyone track valve lash change for evaluation?
Over the last 6000 Plus miles the valves have loosened up as much as .019" on an exhaust while the intakes are around .013" looser to -.002" change.
Seems like my last engine was more stable. Is this normal?.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Valve Adjustment Lash Increasing Over Time Reply with quote

This is often either

lifter heads wearing abnormally (common with mismatched cam and lifters, like a "soft" Engle or CB lifter with a "hard" cam like Web or SCAT)
Pushrod tips and/or lifter CUPS wearing abnormally
Pushrod tips pounding into the pushrod
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was told the CB-Ultra light 2 piece lifters were good to use with the Webcams, are they not? Then which lifters?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people say they are fine to use together, but I disagree completely and have said so many times.

So, who told you they were ok to use together?

CB cams and lifters are a few points softer than the SCAT/Web. Even Pat from CB has stated NOT to use their lifters with "harder" SCAT/Web Cam. Even Engle is using the harder blanks now, so it gets even more complicated, because now there are "soft" and "hard" Engle cams! The cam blank will tell you which.

Virtually every time I mention it being a potential problem guys come in and tell me "it doesn't matter". EVERYTHING MATTERS!

Lots of guys buy the "best deal" they can get on lifters and mix/match whatever best deal they get on a cam, and IMO this is recipe for problems (but that's my opinion). The cam and lifters MUST match and be compatible. Even when they match you can have problems, so to roll the dice even further with incompatible parts makes no sense to me, but lots of guys do it.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but it very well may be, because I don't consider your lifters to be compatible with your cam. But again, that's just my opinion.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is probably the pushrod cup sinking into the lifter. Annoying, but doesn't really hurt anything and may stop eventually.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope it's something this simple. You can pull the rockers and you'll probably see this (check both ends).

modok wrote:
It is probably the pushrod cup sinking into the lifter. Annoying, but doesn't really hurt anything and may stop eventually.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, mine did that and it bothered me so after that I shimmed them all solid. The CB lifters are good material. and good design, but the fit of the cup inside them varies from loose to horribly loose.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have gotten the impression Webcams and CB-Ultra-Lites were ok after reading some of the builds here on the Samba. (I don't Know maybe I got it wrong!)

Switched the push-rods on the head between the cylinders after #1 exhaust valve loosened .011" in just 1350 miles. It's been 2000 miles since and only .005" increase on that one this time. I will keep an eye on them.

I have been running 1/2 a bottle of the Lucus ZDDP additive each oil change, perhaps something better is in order! Any recommendations? The motor oil is Castrol 5W30!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
I must have gotten the impression Webcams and CB-Ultra-Lites were ok after reading some of the builds here on the Samba. (I don't Know maybe I got it wrong!)

Switched the push-rods on the head between the cylinders after #1 exhaust valve loosened .011" in just 1350 miles. It's been 2000 miles since and only .005" increase on that one this time. I will keep an eye on them.

I have been running 1/2 a bottle of the Lucus ZDDP additive each oil change, perhaps something better is in order! Any recommendations? The motor oil is Castrol 5W30!
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You can have too much zddp in your oil. From what I understand. I wouldn't be adding that to my loil.....I would just get a high quality oil like Brad Penn. This adding break in oil at each oil change could be your problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot it this last change, Will see how it goes with out it then. I think I was putting a hole bottle in at first, I think it should be probably just a 1/2 a bottle per 5 quarts or 1/4 per change with the Castrol! Probably stick with the Castrol as it cost a lot less and has always served me well, I have never lost an engine due to rod bearing failure since I discovered it about 20 years ago. Before I would always loose a rod bearing at around 50,000 miles. But yeah, Brad Penn! That would be a big deal for me to start running that stuff!

The only cam I have ever lost was a 36 horse, It had been setting a while before I bought the car. Think it was the water in the oil that caused that!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
I forgot it this last change, Will see how it goes with out it then. I think I was putting a hole bottle in at first, I think it should be probably just a 1/2 a bottle per 5 quarts or 1/4 per change with the Castrol! Probably stick with the Castrol as it cost a lot less and has always served me well, I have never lost an engine due to rod bearing failure since I discovered it about 20 years ago. Before I would always loose a rod bearing at around 50,000 miles. But yeah, Brad Penn! That would be a big deal for me to start running that stuff!

The only cam I have ever lost was a 36 horse, It had been setting a while before I bought the car. Think it was the water in the oil that caused that!


20 years ago Castrol had a lot more zinc in it. But due to emissions standards, the oil companies are using less of it, that's part of the reason why there were so many cam and lifter failures in the early and mid 90's. Cheaper doesn't mean better, besides, oil is the blood of these little motors. I was so paranoid after reading about all these cam and lifter failures that I splurged for the Brad Penn racing oil and a set of Udo Becker tool steel lifters A little bit of insurance goes a long way. I found a list online of different loil and their zinc content, and I think Castrol was one of the lower ones.....but don't quote me on that. Think I just googled "zinc content in leading car oil". And theres a good sticky on oil here on the samba with a ton of great info.....I think even talking about too much zddp in the oil. Might have been Jake Raby that posted about that.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always get my cam and lifters as a matched set. That way I know they are ground right and of the right hardness to work together. of course it could be a case of a loose valve seat letting go, that does happen and some times it can reverse reducing the valve lash if it does settle back into the head, but it will come loose again increasing valve lash.

and yes I always record before and after valve lash measurements, a useful tool for detecting probelms
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all this info. Good to know. Back to the normal change in valve adjustment: What should it be. Like Plus .010" in 10000 miles? Minus .010"? Given that valve seats may ware down causing valves to tighten, perhaps an overall average over the life of the engine of Zero!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Thanks for all this info. Good to know. Back to the normal change in valve adjustment: What should it be. Like Plus .010" in 10000 miles? Minus .010"?


generally I find the valve lash changes .000 to +/- .002 inch over about 3-5000 miles. If you find the lash changed by .010 inch you need to do more frequent valve adjustments. you might try a 2000 mile adjustment interval if you do indeed see a .010 inch change at 10000 miles
with a .010 inch change you likely have a clattering valve train if loose and a near silent valve train if tight by .010 inch (with burnt valves!!!)

heck you only have about .006 inch lash to start with, you change .010 in either direction and you will have problems

nice thing about recording before and after adjustment lash data is that you can predict when the next interval for a valve adjust is needed, based on how much lash changed and miles driven since last adjustment. On my cars that have very little lash change, I can go longer between adjustment than if I have a lash that is changing a large amount. I never let the adjustment get to be .010 inch change, that is way too much, completely out of tolerance.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends entirely on the parts.
Stock lifters and cam and adjuster nubs did tend to wear at a slow but more or less constant pace AND faster than the valves and seats wore, so if I remember right you'd find the lash a thou loose or two at adjustment time regularly.



If you had really good valvetrain stuff, and AMC heads with the soft as butter seats and guides they used to put in those, then they'd be tightening up to zero every 2000 miles.

Be glad your on the safe side of the spectrum.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Good to Know I am on the safe side! Found this on the Lucas: http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Break-In-Additive.pdf it says that 1 bottle 16 oz brings 4.5 quarts of oil to 5000 ppm and it looks like my GTX 5W30 has 830 ppm of ZDDP to start with Just eye-balling this it looks like the 1/2 Bottle of Lucas ZDDP to 5 Quart Bottle of GTX should be at least 1250ppm
As I am close to having the spare engine ready to assemble and have already purchased CB-Performance Ultra-Light lifters to go with the Web-Cam, should I order the scat lightweight lifters and use those CB-Perforamance lifters for something with an Eagle Cam? Might be good to pull the bus engine down and see what's going on do you think?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concern is that WEB began using some different camshaft blanks a year ago, or maybe two years ago.

If the cam has ep-12 cast in it, then your good to go.

If it has sc-1 cast on, then you need scat or engle lifters.

If it says nothing, be afraid LOL
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Thanks, Good to Know I am on the safe side! Found this on the Lucas: http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Break-In-Additive.pdf it says that 1 bottle 16 oz brings 4.5 quarts of oil to 5000 ppm and it looks like my GTX 5W30 has 830 ppm of ZDDP to start with Just eye-balling this it looks like the 1/2 Bottle of Lucas ZDDP to 5 Quart Bottle of GTX should be at least 1250ppm
As I am close to having the spare engine ready to assemble and have already purchased CB-Performance Ultra-Light lifters to go with the Web-Cam, should I order the scat lightweight lifters and use those CB-Perforamance lifters for something with an Eagle Cam? Might be good to pull the bus engine down and see what's going on do you think?


well if you do indeed have rapidly changing valve lash, you can as suggested first pull the pushrods and examine them and lifters and rockers and even the adjuster screws to see what is going on all without having to pull the motor. before pulling motor it might be nice to get a compression test and oil pressure test to determine overall condition. if the compression comes out bad (after a valve adjustment) or oil pressure is bad, then the motor likely needs major attention.

from what I see at the bottom of your posts, you have a spare motor in building, so get here done ASAP just in case the current motor is indeed near the end.

I get all my cams and lifters from Eglin Cams in California. they are real experts and offer many grinds, and they will sell you a set of lifters with the cam that are correct for that cam, no guess work, these guys are professional cam people, not some resellers, they have lots of experience and know their stuff. they even detail things like the correct crown on the lifter for a given cam profile, and they assure the hardness is correct on both cam and lifter. give Elgin a call. They are in their second generation of cam expertise. very good to deal with. I got their cams and lifters in my type I my Type IV and my Wasser boxer motors.

Link.....http://elgincams.com/
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

better call Steve at Webcam and discuss with him. The numbers you gave are quite a bit. It does not have to be in the cam and lifters however. It can be other places. Make sure the rockers are not coming loose too.

In answer to the original question - every one of us who is concerned about the health of our engines tracks the changes in valve wear. There are also oil tests that can be done to see what elements are present in the oil and how much. if it is steel, you can also drag a magnet around in the drained oil and see how much iron it grabs.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
better call Steve at Webcam and discuss with him. The numbers you gave are quite a bit. It does not have to be in the cam and lifters however. It can be other places. Make sure the rockers are not coming loose too.

In answer to the original question - every one of us who is concerned about the health of our engines tracks the changes in valve wear. There are also oil tests that can be done to see what elements are present in the oil and how much. if it is steel, you can also drag a magnet around in the drained oil and see how much iron it grabs.


magnetic drain plugs are great for collecting iron bits and I take notice of how much iron each collects at each oil change. normally the magnets are pretty clean, but they load up with stuff as the engine fails. the magnet also helps keep the oil a little cleaner besides being a nice diagnostic tool.
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