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timichango
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Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I just got done refitting the fuel system in my engine bay (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=680288), and now I'm considering deleting the plastic lines from the pump to the engine bay, and from the engine bay back to the tank. I think I'd like to go with stainless hard lines all the way up to the firewall/bulkhead — and potentially through the firewall into the engine bay.
I reckon it'd be nice to make up a nylon or aluminum fitting/bracket that'd hold the ends of the stainless lines in place in the engine bay, and terminate with flared ends to accept the final run of EFI hose to/from the regulator.
Can anyone lend any advice regarding what's involved with doing this work? I've got a good 5/16" tube bender (I use it for bending 4130 steel tubing for other fabrication purposes, so it'll handle stainless easily), but any advice from anyone who's converted their plastic to steel would be much appreciated.
I'm guessing that — at a minimum — I'm going to need some ramps or jack stands, and I'm going to need to pull the rear wheels to get adequate access to the areas I'd be routing through?
Thanks,
Tim
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djkeev
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dobryan
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timichango
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Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| I cannot recall anyone ever reporting that those hard plastic fuel lines failed. |
That's good to hear, actually. Appreciated.
| dobryan wrote: |
| Why hard lines? You can run regular properly rated fuel line from the pump all the way to the the engine area. Hard lines are just another failure mode area to consider down the road/vibration wise.... |
Well, a couple of reasons, really.
I've always been a bit paranoid about that much old plastic carrying my fuel to-and-fro — as unlikely as it is, I drive a fair amount of logging roads camping, and I'm always worried that an errant rock is going to get launched off of my tire, and nick something... potentially a plastic fuel line.
Additionally, I'm not totally stoked on the way those lines criss-cross, and kinda dangle up behind the firewall, and then splice with rubber hose in order to contort under the firewall to hit the fuel regulator. The whole thing seems like a bit of a dog's breakfast of connections, and running hard lines up to the firewall, and then either connecting through the firewall via a compression fitting with a barb on the other side, or simply running the hard line right through via some sort of custom retainer seems like it'd potentially be a lot cleaner.
I personally wouldn't be too worried about good stainless line failing due to vibration. Aluminum line, I'd worry about it work hardening from vibration, and getting brittle, but annealed stainless is pretty tough stuff, and I'd be surprised if that was a realistic failure mode. There's also specialized coated steel line out there that's supposed to be stupendously easy to bend, and immune to the elements, which works out to about a buck a foot (http://agscompany.com/product-category/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour/)
And from an abrasion/corrosion/impact/fire propagation control standpoint, I'd imagine it'd be both far tougher and far cheaper than running properly rated EFI hose all the way from the pump to the engine and back, as you suggest. That much rubber hose in the fuel system would make me pretty nervous, to be honest...
Anyways, if I'm way off the mark with my rationale here, I'm all ears. Ultimately the goal for the Westy is always more safety, more reliability, less potential for misadventure. If replacing the plastic fuel lines with steel hard lines is a fool's errand, I'll be happy to sink the money into a second fire extinguisher instead 
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flyboyaviator
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Joined: November 29, 2009
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Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| I'm with you timichango, safer is the operating word here. I'll be very interested on your findings, I like to go your route once you have it. |
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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The van is going to be 30 years old pretty quick.
How many other vanagons have the plastic lines?
All of them.
The stock fuel line is pretty stout, and you would probably take that van to be excavating 12" rock or clay to get anywhere near fracturing it.
Big waste of time & energy in my opinion.
Go to a Parker store and pick up some reinforced fuel line.
Be a better choice, and one heck of lot easier.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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furrylittleotter
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TKentT
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Location: Sevierville TN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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Duplicate... Sorry!
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1952 MG TD Replica, 69 VW IRS pan, 1679cc with 40 HPMXs -- Most fun for the money out there...
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682322
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Last edited by TKentT on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TKentT
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Location: Sevierville TN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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If you want to metal lines, I'd consider copper. You can easily bend it to route it the way you want, flare it with a flaring tool and install fittings yourself wherever needed, and can even sweat joints - if you do that before gas is introduced into the lines. Back in the day, almost all gas lies were copper...
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1952 MG TD Replica, 69 VW IRS pan, 1679cc with 40 HPMXs -- Most fun for the money out there...
1986 Doka Transporter, 14" Syncro w/dual lockers -- 60,000km Swedish firetruck...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682322
30+ VWs before them... |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| TKentT wrote: |
| If you want to metal lines, I'd consider copper. You can easily bend it to route it the way you want, flare it with a flaring tool and install fittings yourself wherever needed, and can even sweat joints - if you do that before gas is introduced into the lines. Back in the day, almost all gas lies were copper... |
Funny you mention it.
I'd actually initially considered copper (cunifer, actually, which is a copper alloy tubing), but subsequently read some stuff on other forums that asserted that it — like alu tubing — tends to work-harden with vibration, and wind up getting brittle and cracking in much the same way. Apparently that's exactly why it eventually fell out of favour in broader usage?
Not sure — I'm just parroting what I've read. Given the fact copper line can apparently also oxidize, though, and that some of the coated annealed steel lines are supposedly stupid-easy to bend, and more or less corrosion-impervious, I'm not sure about the copper/cunifer.
I wouldn't anticipate needing to sweat any joints, but I have a small O/A brazing setup in my garage (I occasionally build cromoly touring racks for bicycles as a hobby), so I could join stainless as well if it came down to it using safety-silv 45.
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timichango
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Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
The van is going to be 30 years old pretty quick.
How many other vanagons have the plastic lines?
All of them.
The stock fuel line is pretty stout, and you would probably take that van to be excavating 12" rock or clay to get anywhere near fracturing it.
Big waste of time & energy in my opinion.
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Good to know, and the input is appreciated.
However, back in 2008 you personally stated:
| Terry Kay wrote: |
| Stainless tubing running back from the pump to the engine bay would eliminate a bunch of problems--and for a much longer duration than just braided lines. |
... in this thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?t=275709&start=0
So what made you change your tune? Not trying to be provocative here — just trying to figure out the best approach.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
Go to a Parker store and pick up some reinforced fuel line.
Be a better choice, and one heck of lot easier. |
When you say 'reinforced fuel line', are you referring to properly rated EFI hose? Or something else?
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djkeev
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midmo81
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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To add one more data point...about five years ago after my newwestyownerdidnotchangefuellines fire - when putting everything back together and needing to replace both input and return fuel lines, I used metal lines to replace the plastic. No problems so far.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| I have metal lines for both the supply and return and make the junction between the rubber and metal lines as high in the engine compartment as reasonably possible so that if a fire starts and burns though the lines there is less chance of gravity continuing to feed fuel to the fire. I also have a spring loaded check valve in the return line near the tank to prevent backflow from the fuel tank through the return in case of a fire. |
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I can change my mind on a lot of things too in 9 years.
I don't think it's a bad idea, I simply think now that since then there is better ways to get the job done.
If you have a burning desire to bend some stainless tubing to & from the engine bay, nothing wrong with that thought.
There are all kinds of products that is easier to use, that will give you the same or better results, easier.
The worst portion of the stainless installation would be to isolating it from the frame, etc, from vibration.
Harmonics, rubbing, you know the drill.
I don't have a parker hose catalog here, but I know with a phone call or a visit to a parker dealership, they would be more than happy to accommodate your inquiries on bullet proof fuel line.
It will probably cost more than the stainless.
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TKentT
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Location: Sevierville TN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| timichango wrote: |
I'd actually initially considered copper (cunifer, actually, which is a copper alloy tubing), but subsequently read some stuff on other forums that asserted that it — like alu tubing — tends to work-harden with vibration, and wind up getting brittle and cracking in much the same way. Apparently that's exactly why it eventually fell out of favour in broader usage?
Not sure — I'm just parroting what I've read. Given the fact copper line can apparently also oxidize, though, and that some of the coated annealed steel lines are supposedly stupid-easy to bend, and more or less corrosion-impervious, I'm not sure about the copper/cunifer.
I wouldn't anticipate needing to sweat any joints, but I have a small O/A brazing setup in my garage (I occasionally build cromoly touring racks for bicycles as a hobby), so I could join stainless as well if it came down to it using safety-silv 45. |
Copper fuel lines were mounted solidly to frame rails, etc., and rubber lines were used for flexible connections, similar to how brake lines are used. Typically copper lines ran from the tank to the engine compartment, then rubber to the mechanical fuel pump to handle engine movement and vibration, then metal from the fuel pump to the carb. The copper lines were mounted with brackets to minimize movement and vibration...
I think that practice likely changed due to costs - both in materials and assembly effort...
Extensive use of rubber and plastic is simply cheaper....
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1952 MG TD Replica, 69 VW IRS pan, 1679cc with 40 HPMXs -- Most fun for the money out there...
1986 Doka Transporter, 14" Syncro w/dual lockers -- 60,000km Swedish firetruck...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682322
30+ VWs before them... |
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timichango
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Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Honestly, in Nine years I've personally changed my views on many things in life. |
Oh, no doubt. It's not everyday that you get to poll someone on why their opinion has changed on a particular subject, particularly after nine years. I figure there's got to be some valuable insight behind the change of mind, so worth asking.
| djkeev wrote: |
| Feeling that Vanagons were the low point of VW as a Company being one of those things. |
Hahahahah... wait, so which side of that opinion are you currently? 
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Last edited by timichango on Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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timichango
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Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| TKentT wrote: |
I think that practice likely changed due to costs - both in materials and assembly effort...
Extensive use of rubber and plastic is simply cheaper.... |
...you're almost certainly correct. I hadn't thought about the soaring price of copper, and the ubiquity of plastics (funny, given our family business was plastics for a few generations).
I will say, however, having bent my fair share of both copper and stainless in other applications, that stainless will tolerate a lot more manipulation (which translates to vibration in this context) before cracking or tearing apart.
Whether it matters in this context, though? You're probably right, and it probably doesn't.
I'll wager stainless is cheaper than copper these days too though!
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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I didn't ever suggest copper, nor would I ever use copper fuel lines.
You can, I wouldn't.
I would use reinforced parker fuel line as I suggested.
What exactly are looking for here ??
Go ahead, do what you want.
Run bamboo tubing to & from the engine.
Sounds like an idea.
Syn flex would be good too.
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timichango
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Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing stock plastic fuel lines with stainless hard lines |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
I didn't ever suggest copper, nor would I ever use copper fuel lines.
You can, I wouldn't.
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The copper was in response to another user, who suggested copper, not to you... hence why I quoted that user, and not you.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
I would use reinforced parker fuel line as I suggested.
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Noted. Why Parker, specifically, and not something like the Gates Barricade MPI hose? That's what's available at my local industrial/automotive supply shop, and which I've been using for the shorter hoses, and comparing the specs on it to the fuel lines in the Parker catalog, it seems pretty comparable.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
What exactly are looking for here ??
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I thought I was clear in my original post: I'm looking for ideas — specifically about what to expect from the process, and what the optimal solution overall might be. For what it's worth, your input was helpful.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
Go ahead, do what you want.
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I plan to — once I figure out what I want to do. Hence the information-gathering thread here. I'm evaluating the options.
| Terry Kay wrote: |
Run bamboo tubing to & from the engine.
Sounds like an idea.
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Why the snark?
| Terry Kay wrote: |
| Syn flex would be good too. |
I'll look into it. Thanks.
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