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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:11 pm Post subject: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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I have a story and a question...
We took a ride in the '69 VW yesterday in the rain, lights on the entire drive. During the final few minutes of the drive the power was intermittently falling off, slightly bucking and then coming back as full power... Grrrrr.
Thinking that I was experiencing a fuel issue and needing a fuel filter, I stopped for fuel even though the tank was not low. At the restart, there was not one... 
With no way to get home, we called in a AAA flatbed ride. Home, save and sound, I checked the battery first, took it out to charge it and was able to restart the car. However, I did a Load Test and the battery is not completely toast.
I should add that the battery was new from 12/2021 and there have been NO issues at all with starting until yesterday...
A quick check for generator output shows that the charging system is indeed a charging system, I get 12.60-ish at idle and 13.6 across the battery when RPM rises. Little to no change when turning the lights on.
The battery is fairly healthy and I have it back in a 2 amp charger until it is perfect.
I also confused the heck out of myself by reading the testing procedures in the Tech Manual for testing Regulator and Generator outputs.
So, the question:
When getting a reading of 13.6 and better enough at the battery while the car is running to say that the charging system is working...? Or do I need to school myself on the other testing procedures for a faulty regulator in the manual...?
I would hate to become a little skittish while driving the car thinking that there May be an issue looming...
Thanks much,
Rob
Edit:
I should add some more details...
I cleaned all connections on the battery, regulator and at the generator. The belt is fine, not shiny and the deflection is right at ~ 3/4"...
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53188
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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13.6 isn't bad, I'd be removing all the battery cables and ground straps and shining up the ends as well as what they attach to, if that doesn't help then some ignition switch testing is called for.
The bucking and dying sounds like another issue, points or Pertonix?, genuine VW fuel pump and phenolic base?, or "new" stuff?, genuine cooling tins, shroud, fan and thermostat?, or more of that shiny new China trash?
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33445
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2025 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
A quick check for generator output shows that the charging system is indeed a charging system, I get 12.60-ish at idle and 13.6 across the battery when RPM rises. Little to no change when turning the lights on.
When getting a reading of 13.6 and better enough at the battery while the car is running to say that the charging system is working...? |
That's how I confirm that a charging system is working, whether on a generator-equipped VW or my alternator-equipped older trucks.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2025 6:15 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
13.6 isn't bad, I'd be removing all the battery cables and ground straps and shining up the ends as well as what they attach to, if that doesn't help then some ignition switch testing is called for.
The bucking and dying sounds like another issue, points or Pertonix?, genuine VW fuel pump and phenolic base?, or "new" stuff?, genuine cooling tins, shroud, fan and thermostat?, or more of that shiny new China trash? |
I removed and cleaned all but the grounding point for the negative cable, I'll do that today.
"Bucking" may have been a poor choice of words, more of a hollow, power falling off type of feel to the pedal, hard to describe, it was intermittent and short in duration and then the power would come back fully. That was what had me thinking fuel initially...
All components are box stock VW... the fact that the battery fell off so badly and within twenty-five miles has me scratchin' me head.
Thanks
| Cusser wrote: |
| radbug69 wrote: |
A quick check for generator output shows that the charging system is indeed a charging system, I get 12.60-ish at idle and 13.6 across the battery when RPM rises. Little to no change when turning the lights on.
When getting a reading of 13.6 and better enough at the battery while the car is running to say that the charging system is working...?
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That's how I confirm that a charging system is working, whether on a generator-equipped VW or my alternator-equipped older trucks. |
Perfect, thank you for that.
Off for more connection cleaning...
Rob |
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runamoc 
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2025 8:30 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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The ignition system on a VW can work with just flashlight batteries. Your 'bucking' problem is not because of 'low voltage'. I'm thinking maybe points, coil, or condenser is the problem.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2025 10:25 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| runamoc wrote: |
| The ignition system on a VW can work with just flashlight batteries. Your 'bucking' problem is not because of 'low voltage'. I'm thinking maybe points, coil, or condenser is the problem. |
Right, as I was telling Cusser, that was a poor choice of words to describe the symptoms.
It was not a bucking or stumbling, just more of a falling off of power.
Anyway,
I checked the points, all good, cleaned the grounding point for the main negative cable. All other connections previously cleaned.
This is the reading I get from the battery at rest, starting, idle, slightly higher RPMs, pulling the lights on and back to idle.
What do you make of the fluctuation of RPMs from 13.6 to a slightly lower value while in the high RPM ranges..? Not counting the idle numbers...
What does that indicate...?
Thanks very much,
Rob
VW Charging values, start up, idle and higher RPMs...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qSEM_QN1yO4 |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33445
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2025 10:39 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
| We took a ride in the '69 VW yesterday in the rain.... During the final few minutes of the drive the power was intermittently falling off, slightly bucking and then coming back as full power... |
Could some water have gotten on the engine, causing intermittent spark jumping? Mist the engine with water from a spray bottle while running the engine in the dark. Look for spark jumping.
Note: you'll get less tired if you have the VW in neutral while checking that, so you don't have to run after it ! Obviously, do this at night and NOT in an enclosed garage, or you may die.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Last edited by Cusser on Sun Aug 03, 2025 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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runamoc
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Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2025 10:45 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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At night, in the dark, with your bug running, open the engine cover and see if you see any spark jumping. 
| Quote: |
| 13.6 to a slightly lower value while in the high RPM ranges |
Slipping fan belt. It can be slipping and not squeal
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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Q-Dog
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BMFBMF
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Joined: November 13, 2020
Posts: 532
Location: Swtzerland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2025 11:22 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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4 years for a battery. Seems about par for the course these days.
Maybe I missed it but what was the battery voltage when you got home? And after a full charge and then sitting for a day?
_________________
-----Slava Ukraini-----
1971 Stock South African Beetle 1300 : My mom's european "Thin Chick" spec. Completely stock with torsion bar front, swingaxle rear, smooth hubs, single MC, 40 mm shoes, 31PICT3 carb and 5 bolt drums all round, currently Running a 1976 SF:AS engine with the original SF:AD engine overhauled in a box, waiting to go back in one day. |
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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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These are all of your replies, not quoted per se rather simply listed...
Could some water have gotten on the engine, causing intermittent spark jumping? Mist the engine with water from a spray bottle while running the engine in the dark. Look for spark jumping.
Interesting... well we were driving in the rain. Not a monsoon, just a light rain. I will do the "Spark jumping" test tonight... Will this "Jumping" show itself on or around the plug wires...? I know, stupid question.
I am left wondering how this could have been a problem for the battery...
Thanks
===================
Slipping fan belt. It can be slipping and not squeal
The tension is right on at 3/4" deflection and not shiny as if slipping. That would certainly be my first thought also. and a possible reaso for the battery drain.
Thanks
=================
Are you running the stock mechanical voltage regulator?
It seems to be the stock mechanical regulator. I will have to school myself with the test procedure on that part of the charging system.
=============
Maybe I missed it but what was the battery voltage when you got home? And after a full charge and then sitting for a day?
The battery was flat broke when we got home via the flatbed hauler. I charged it, 2 amp for a bit and read 12.60 -ish trickle charged at .750 amp overnight and load tested satisfactory. Today the battery at rest reads 12.65 at rest prior to starting the car.
I gotta believe that the regulator is the issue. I'll spend some quality time with the manual and the "For Dummies" book to try and figure out how to test that.
Thanks all,
Rob |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33445
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 7:56 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
Interesting... well we were driving in the rain. Not a monsoon, just a light rain. I will do the "Spark jumping" test tonight... Will this "Jumping" show itself on or around the plug wires...? I know, stupid question.
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Check all around the spark plug wires, at the ends, at their connections/top of distributor, and at the coil. I've seen spark jumping at all those spots.
| radbug69 wrote: |
I am left wondering how this could have been a problem for the battery...
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If the battery drains quickly with everything turned off, either bad battery or a parasitic drain.
I use this resource for testing generator and regulator
https://speedyjim.net/htm/gen.htm
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16766
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 8:44 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
Maybe I missed it but what was the battery voltage when you got home? And after a full charge and then sitting for a day?
The battery was flat broke when we got home via the flatbed hauler. |
"Flat broke" is not a voltage reading?!?! Did you mean there was zero voltage across the battery terminals when you got it home? If so, your battery is dead-dead and you need a new one. Unless there is an internal conductor break and/or you have drained all the electrolyte a battery should never read zero volts. If it does you should no longer trust it. An internal crack could cause a spark. I've seen what happens when a battery has an internal spark... the hydrogen given off by the electrolyte (acid) ignites and the battery explodes spreading acid everywhere.
If by "flat broke" you meant a "zero state of charge" (11.1v), then you should recharge the battery and get it to a full state of charge (12.6v at rest).
Fully discharging a lead-acid battery can permanantly damage it so that is never 100%. It could have a reduced CCA capacity or not be able to maintain a full charge. Traditional batteries were never designed to be fully discharged.
I watched the YouTube video. I could see at idle it was showing 13.6v which indicates the generator is putting out a minimum charging value. But it seemed to me that when you raised the idle the voltage started to drop off? There seemed to be a lot of fluctuation in the voltage reading.
FYI, taking the voltage reading at the battery terminals to check the charging voltage ONLY works when you have a fully charged battery. If your battery is reading less than 12.6v at rest before the test it will bring down the charging voltage reading during the test and make you think there is a problem with the charging system when it is actually just a weak battery.
Follow the link Cusser posted to Speedy Jim's page. Read it all the way through and run the tests.
Start with polarizing the generator. The easiest way I have found to do this is to remove the DF wire at the generator. Also remove the fan belt. Go to the area under the left rear seat and disconnect the battery B+ wire and the D+ wire from the VR. Connect then together and place them on a rag so they don't touch anything. Go back to the generator and using a jumper wire ground the DF terminal. This should spark and cause the generator to spin CW. If necessary give the pulley a nudge to get it spinning. Once it is spinning you can disconnect the DF wire. The generator is now polarized. Reconnect all wires to normal.
Inspect the generator for other problems like worn brushes.
Next run the test where you measure the voltage coming from D+ while you ground the DF with the engine running. This will put the generator into MAX output. Only run this tests for a few seconds at a time to avoid overheating the generator. Disconnect any wires not needed for the test. You want to see D+ put out more than 35v. This confirms the generator can output more than enough voltage for the VR to manage. If the generator puts out enough voltage, it suggests if there are any charging problems they are with the VR.
Reconnect everything. Charge up your battery so it reads 12.6v at rest. Start the engine and raise the idle to a steady 2100rpms-ish. Generators don't normally produce enough charge at idle. Take a voltage reading at the battery terminals. You should see 13.8v+. 13.5+ is sort of the bare minimum but I like to see 13.8~14.5v from the charging system.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
Check all around the spark plug wires, at the ends, at their connections/top of distributor, and at the coil. I've seen spark jumping at all those spots.
==================
If the battery drains quickly with everything turned off, either bad battery or a parasitic drain.
I use this resource for testing generator and regulator
https://speedyjim.net/htm/gen.htm |
The battery is not draining while sitting all day, actually, the past two days. We have been away from ho for most of these days.
10-4 on the speedyjim testing, I'll do that this evening as well as the aforementioned Jump Spark Testing...
Thanks much. |
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radbug69
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Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
Check all around the spark plug wires, at the ends, at their connections/top of distributor, and at the coil. I've seen spark jumping at all those spots.
==================
If the battery drains quickly with everything turned off, either bad battery or a parasitic drain.
I use this resource for testing generator and regulator
https://speedyjim.net/htm/gen.htm |
The battery is not draining while sitting all day, actually, the past two days. We have been away from ho for most of these days.
10-4 o the speedyjim testing, I'll do that this evening as well as the aforementioned Jump Spark Testing...
Thanks
================
[quote="ashman40"]
| radbug69 wrote: |
"Flat broke" is not a voltage reading?!?! Did you mean there was zero voltage across the battery terminals when you got it home?
If by "flat broke" you meant a "zero state of charge" (11.1v), then you should recharge the battery and get it to a full state of charge (12.6v at rest).
I watched the YouTube video. I could see at idle it was showing 13.6v which indicates the generator is putting out a minimum charging value. But it seemed to me that when you raised the idle the voltage started to drop off? There seemed to be a lot of fluctuation in the voltage reading.
FYI, taking the voltage reading at the battery terminals to check the charging voltage ONLY works when you have a fully charged battery. If your battery is reading less than 12.6v at rest before the test it will bring down the charging voltage reading during the test and make you think there is a problem with the charging system when it is actually just a weak battery.
Follow the link Cusser posted to Speedy Jim's page. Read it all the way through and run the tests.
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I did not read the battery when we were delivered off the flatbed, I tried to start the car and it was emitting only a sluggish groan for a second and then nothing, so I took that as discharged.
The next day I charged the battery Fully and started the car.
Since then, I have had not been home to do any further testing, I will this evening.
I have taken a second, while heading out the door to read the battery state at rest and it is at 12.66 right now (6:23 EST) and has been for thirty-ish hours.
the link for this evening.
Is it common for generators loose polarity that would necessitate this polarization..?
Thanks |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33445
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
I have taken a second, while heading out the door to read the battery state at rest and it is at 12.66 right now (6:23 EST) and has been for thirty-ish hours.
the link for this evening.
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I've never found "battery at rest" values to be of much use, except that a reading of 10 or 8 is definitely bad.
| radbug69 wrote: |
Is it common for generators loose polarity that would necessitate this polarization..?
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No, not in my experience or reading.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2025 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| Quote: |
| common for generators loose polarity that would necessitate this polarization |
I've never had to polarize a generator.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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1600man
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Location: Wichita KS USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:26 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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I wonder if the voltage regulator is going bad.
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1972 Cutlass
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radbug69
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2020
Posts: 199
Location: Maine, North East USA...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| 1600man wrote: |
| I wonder if the voltage regulator is going bad. |
That is what I hope to figure out here shortly... We have been involved in a huge home project that is taking all of my time.
I have only been able to check static voltage state as I walk by the car. This morning the battery reads 12.64, same as yesterday.
So, at least, no parasitic draw.
I intend to get to the speedyjim testing procedure as soon as I can.
Back soon (I hope) with more info...
Thanks all,
Rob |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16766
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2025 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: 69 VW Type 1 charging question... ? ? ? |
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| radbug69 wrote: |
| I did not read the battery when we were delivered off the flatbed, I tried to start the car and it was emitting only a sluggish groan for a second and then nothing, so I took that as discharged. |
Ok, still no actual readings but this helps to understand what you meant. Struggles to crank the engine = weak battery.
| radbug69 wrote: |
| The next day I charged the battery Fully and started the car. |
Charged the battery and now the engine cranks normally and starts. So your battery was able to take a charge.
Having sat for a while it still reads 12.6v indicates it can hold a charge.
I think you mentioned load testing? What was the CCA load used when testing? Or are you using a modern battery tester that does a “simulated load test”?
| radbug69 wrote: |
| Is it common for generators loose polarity that would necessitate this polarization..? |
The field coil in the generator is just a coil of wire wrapped around an iron core. Similar to experiments done in school where you wrap wire around a nail to make an electromagnet that is powered from a small battery. Did you notice that after your experiment, the nail retains a level of magnetism even without power running thru the the wire? It is only a small amount of magnetism (grab a paper clip). This is “polarizing” the nail. The field coil in the generator is just like this.
If you left the nail used in the electromagnet sitting long enough it would no longer act like a magnet. The residual magnetism goes away over time. Also, if you were to drop the nail and shock it you would also loose the magnetic charge retained in the metal of the nail.
The same applies to generators… leave them long enough and you will need to polarize the generator to get it to start charging (re-polarize it). I believe it takes years or at least many months sitting. New generators sitting on a shelf for years may require polarization before initial use. Dropping a generator onto the floor could also shock the generator enough that it would need to be re-polarized. And I have even heard of people reverse polarizing their generator (polarizing it with the wires reversed) such that it would produce a negative charge!
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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