| Author |
Message |
heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7552
Location: Houston, Texas
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
 |
|
With 6 kids you are blessed family.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
AA Pistons and CB Performance didn’t let me down, they delivered the next few parts for this motor over the last few days.
85.5mm cast pistons and cylinders, bolt together rocker shafts, stock lifters to match their 2280 cheater cam, and a few other knick knacks. I ground back the stock rockers to use some genuine Porsche swivel adjusters a while back, and I’m still pretty sure I’ll keep all the rocker ratios stock. Just a few more parts and I’ll be ready to start putting things together.. my last big thing to do is get the case machined. I’ve got a decent vertical mill but I’m still learning, and without a DRO I think I’d be just really, really slow. There’s a guy here locally that still does case work.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 11424
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
IIRC, Alstrup recommended the compression ration for that camshaft, really comes alive at 9.1CR and a little above.
Hopefully he'll see this and chime in.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin! 
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7926
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
IIRC, Alstrup recommended the compression ration for that camshaft, really comes alive at 9.1CR and a little above.
Hopefully he'll see this and chime in. |
Who me? Never said that about the 2280. 9-1 is for 93-94 US octane.
No. I have said I would not build anything around that cam with less than 8,3, and at 8,5 it really comes into its comfort zone. It being a sgl port with slightly less efficiency i would definitely do 8,5.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 11424
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
IIRC, Alstrup recommended the compression ration for that camshaft, really comes alive at 9.1CR and a little above.
Hopefully he'll see this and chime in. |
Who me? Never said that about the 2280. 9-1 is for 93-94 US octane.
No. I have said I would not build anything around that cam with less than 8,3, and at 8,5 it really comes into its comfort zone. It being a sgl port with slightly less efficiency i would definitely do 8,5. |
Ok, Thank you for clarifying Alstrup. My mistake.
I'll take that info on advisement. I have the same camshaft waiting in the wings for an SP build.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I can get 8.5 out of it, that should be easy. Thanks for the info! 
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 7670
Location: Durango, CO
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
With 8.5 I would definitely use premium octane fuel.
To touch on the MPG conversion from page 2, I get 19-20 MPGs while city driving (I drive it hard) in my ‘65 Deluxe with a 9-1 2109cc. My bus with a 8.13-1 2275cc gets 17 city and 21.5 hwy.
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’71 Double Cab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I'm going off memory since I can't find it written down anywhere, but when I rebuilt my '71 bus engine several years ago - gosh close to a decade now - I think I had a static CR of 8.1, with a deck height right at .040" It was easy to build and didn't take much to get everything in range.
Calculating it out for this beetle engine, using 85.5mm bore, 69mm stroke, 50mm heads, and 8.5:1 CR, the deck height would only be .019" which seems pretty snug. I mean it makes me squirm a little to think about it being that tight. I haven't CCd the heads yet but the math looks like I'd need about 48cc to get to a .033" deck, which seems more tolerable.. am I on the right track?
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 11424
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Calculating it out for this beetle engine, using 85.5mm bore, 69mm stroke, 50mm heads, and 8.5:1 CR, the deck height would only be .019" which seems pretty snug. |
50mm heads? I don't understand.
The 0.019" DH is gonna be a problem. It's really close to the valves.
I run 0.039" in my 2276 and makes me squirm a bit.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
Yeah, my fault, I meant to write 50cc’s.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1642
Location: S.W. MI
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
Check the front long cam journal studs, I would heli-coil them while doing case savers, 2 out of 3 engines I have worked on had pulled, wouldn't torque, at least check torque b4 you assemble. Will never do another case with out that and case savers, sucks to be doing final torque and have them let loose.
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1574
Location: Westfield, MA.
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
That’s because most of the people Pooh pooing the idea of single port have little to no experience with them or ain’t old enough to remember them, or maybe they’ve lost too many brain cells and forgotten.  Then again this is high performance forum so if you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. I would do all the things you suggested except skip the 88s keep it 1600 and balance it. It might be time to get back to basics and reread an old book like how to hotrod vw engines by Bill Fisher. Written in 1970 it has solid info on what was happening then using OEM parts but that’s not to say time has stood still, advances have been made. I’m with you keep it mostly stock but you an cheat a little using choice OEM items. |
Agreed 95.6735 percent... except i'll point out again this isn't a high performance forum, it's a performance or engine or transmission forum. Sorry that always irritates me  I totally agree that building a nice single port can be a lost art. They are so much fun when done right. And what are these brain cells you speak of?? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1628
Location: The South Zone
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| AA Pistons and CB Performance didn’t let me down, they delivered the next few parts for this motor over the last few days. |
Damn, I'm too late!
I was really hoping to convince you to keep the original 83mm P&C's (assuming they're still within spec). 83's have the thickest cylinder walls by far, and that's a good thing. 85.5mm sounds like a nice upgrade, but I had a 1500cc single-port that I later converted to 1600cc, and honestly, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference in performance. I'd rather have the thicker cylinder wall of the 83mm than the added displacement of the 85.5mm.
In fact, when I was designing my latest mill with the goal of longevity in mind, I purposefully went with 83mm P&C's (which I had to import myself from Brasil) and dropped in a 76mm crank for the bump in displacement. A more beautiful pairing there never was!
If you want a set of cylinders that will last damn near forever, 83mm is the way to go.
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Floating VW wrote: |
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| AA Pistons and CB Performance didn’t let me down, they delivered the next few parts for this motor over the last few days. |
Damn, I'm too late!
I was really hoping to convince you to keep the original 83mm P&C's (assuming they're still within spec). 83's have the thickest cylinder walls by far, and that's a good thing. 85.5mm sounds like a nice upgrade, but I had a 1500cc single-port that I later converted to 1600cc, and honestly, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference in performance. I'd rather have the thicker cylinder wall of the 83mm than the added displacement of the 85.5mm.
In fact, when I was designing my latest mill with the goal of longevity in mind, I purposefully went with 83mm P&C's (which I had to import myself from Brasil) and dropped in a 76mm crank for the bump in displacement. A more beautiful pairing there never was!
If you want a set of cylinders that will last damn near forever, 83mm is the way to go. |
Do you not have knowledge of the 66 1300? 77mm pistons wearing cylinders you could bore out to 83 and still have meat. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Floating VW wrote: |
| Damn, I'm too late!. |
I never really considered reusing the original (if they are truly original) pistons and cylinder just due to the number of assumed miles on the engine. If it truly has the 130k that shows on the odometer, and that the valve guides reflected, I don't think I'd have much usable life left, at least in the pistons.
The best tool I own to reach down into the ring lands is just a dial caliper... I can't think of any other way to measure them. But I don't mind checking the old stuff over and at least seeing what kind of life is left in them.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 15095
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
You can get a pretty good idea of the life left in the cylinders by looking at where the top ring stops. If there is a sizable ridge there that will hook and hold your fingernail then it is likely too worn. I have re-used many used cylinders that after 60 to 80K miles only needed a few passes with a proper cylinder hone (not the dingle ball type) to clean them up. It's my view that most VW P/C sets are tossed out not because they are worn out but because replacements are reasonably priced. I am an old "re-use, re-cycle where ever you can" guy.
In my experience VW cylinders don't seem to wear as badly as the American cast iron engine blocks. Material? Rod ratio? Bore and stroke ratio? I don't know.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I've heard differing opinions about cylinder wear, but almost all the research I've done (not much hands-on experience in this area yet) agree that the pistons are more likely to be worn out than the cylinders, all other factors equal. I may get a dial bore indicator soon instead of using snap gauges and a micrometer, just haven't made up my mind to do it yet.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| I've heard differing opinions about cylinder wear, but almost all the research I've done (not much hands-on experience in this area yet) agree that the pistons are more likely to be worn out than the cylinders, all other factors equal. I may get a dial bore indicator soon instead of using snap gauges and a micrometer, just haven't made up my mind to do it yet. |
Snap gauges and a mic can work well if you have good technique. My way is with the cylinder clean, head side down on a piece of glass (i don't own a surface plate) I angle lock and rock my snap gauge out at the spigot side which should be undistorted for the most part. Than i take an angle and insert it all the way (that's what she said) With the gauge sitting on the glass i spin it and lift. Out of round is detected by tightness and over worn by the height you can lift the gauge until it makes contact. The trick to this method is to get your good eye right down the center of the cylinder and twist back and forth slow and easy as you lift. Most people just fiquire its cheap enough to buy a set. I have never checked a new set. Could be perfect, could be worse than what you got. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8713
Location: PNW
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| My point towards a poster on this thread was that 77's had the thickest walls. My first VW was a 63 with a fresh rebuilt 66 1300 motor. I bought it in 78 at 16 years of age and gave $500 for it in Edina Mn. with my dads approval. Dune Buggy supply in Hopkins got a lot more money over the next couple years than i spent on it originally. I baja'd it cut the fenders off and rolled it twice. Best money ever spent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
