'73 Super HL Switch ON, No RTurn Signal or Flashers

[vamram]

Happy Tuesday, Samba!

This problem started a few days ago. My '73 Super's RIGHT turn signal and emergency flashers stop working if I turn on the headlight switch to either of its two positions - parking lights on, or parking lights AND headlights on. The double-green arrow in the speedo lights dimly and the turn signal relay does a single click. Emergency flasher button goes red and stays red w/out flashing.

The Left turn signal works normally, headlight switch on or off. Both turn signals and the emergency flashers work normally when the headlight switch is turned fully OFF. This is an original VW headlight switch.

I'm looking for some troubleshooting ideas before I start removing the speedo or the light switch.

Failing headlight switch...? Loose wire at the speedo...at the switch? Other...?

Thanks.

_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
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[VW_Jimbo]

Check the ground at the light and the wiring at BOTH ends. Sounds like corrosion or a poor connection.
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[vamram]

Jimbo the grounds at the front fender are tight and shiny copper and brass. Also, the issue seems to be intermittent. The signals worked fine on a drive today. Short drive, though, I'll take it on a longer one tomorrow. Maybe wires or connectors need to heat up some...? Spit-ballin here.

Where else should I look?
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[baldessariclan]

Still sounds like a poor or intermittent grounding path issue to me as well — suspecting a loose connection or high resistance point somewhere. Recommend systematically checking all wiring and connections, fuses, etc. along the entire path for the circuits in question. For each, start at the hot end, and work your way to final grounding point.
_________________
1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver

baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt...

[vamram]

Quick update on this - looks like the issue was likely something w/the connections at the front right turn signal assembly. After unbolting it from the fender to check the connections and the replacing it, the problem hasn't returned. It's odd, because the terminals are all squeaky clean and I *thought* they were in snuggly. I pressed on all of them for the heck of it before reinstalling it. Haven't lost the right turn or emergency flashers since.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Spoke too soon. The problem was back today on the way to work. Once in the parking lot I did a quick check. Lights off, right front turn signal works but it turns out that it also cause BOTH rear tail lights to blink in synch w/the right turn signal. OY.

I had this solved. Two changes since yesterday - I installed side tar boards in the engine compartment. Perhaps I messed up a connection or the grounds. And it's raining this morning. Wont be able to look at this until late this afternoon. Just in time for this weekend's road trip to upstate NY. Ugh.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[talljordan]

This also reads as likely a bad ground to me. Do the park lights work when the lights are on?

Do you have a multimeter? I would measure the resistance between the ground wire in the housing.

Also remove the lens, turn on the lights and flashers, and measure the voltage at the contact with the bulb removed and ground the meter to a good SOLID spot (not the metal housing). Does it go to 12V as the flasher clicks?

The last thing is that power for the headlights does flow through the emergency flasher switch and the dimmer relay. if one or both of these are bad, this could cause the issue.
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[vamram]

Jordan, I'm going to do the 2 easiest things today - clean the ground strap and tailight grounds in the engine compartment, test, failing that, replace the flasher relay w/a new E-flasher LED-compatible relay. Front connections are clean, I went through those previously. I'll report back.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Ground strap is good, clean and tight. I replaced the relay - the one in there was already EP35. Anyway, now the emergency flashers work with the lights on. But:

- rear taillights flash along with the emergency flashers - both sides
- speedo indicator doesn't flash with the flashers.
- right turn only signal doesn't flash with lights on
- right turn signal flashes with the headlights off - and so do both taillights.
- left turn signal flashes normally, no taillights

Next...check rear right taillight wiring?
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Buggeee]

It's a mystery to me how the electricity finds its way into seemingly unrelated circuits, but sometimes I have cleaned connections in one circuit to find that solved riddles in other circuits. Keep at it.
_________________
Big Time 1988 Vanagon Westy
Release the Krankenwagen! 1966 Sportsmobile Camper
Dr. Kompressor 72 Super Duper
61 Turkis Pile (adopted out)

[vamram]

Buggee, here's hoping.

I decided since both filaments of the right front turn signal bulb at on when I turn on the lights that I should check it first. Here you go.

Front right turn signal wires all disconnected, turn on flashers or right turn signal - rear taillights both blink AND the left front turn signal blinks!!

This is how the assembly is wired.

Grey wire the trunk-side connector. Fat black in the middle. Long skinny black to the side marker bulb, ground on the outside spade that's part of the blinker assembly body. I find it odd that this assembly is so rusted out in front.

_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[talljordan]

It is time to start poking at things with a multimeter and checking where voltage is and when.

- rear taillights flash along with the emergency flashers - both sides
Remove the bulbs, check every single contact for voltage and ensure they are only receiving voltage when they should.

- speedo indicator doesn't flash with the flashers.
This is wired directly into the relay, is it receiving voltage? Are you sure you have the right relay?

- right turn only signal doesn't flash with lights on
- right turn signal flashes with the headlights off - and so do both taillights.
- left turn signal flashes normally, no taillights

All of this still sounds to me like either very incorrect wiring, or a bad emergency flasher switch.



Another useful debugging strategy is to disconnect wires in the trunk, and apply 12V to them and ensure only the lights you expect to light up: light up.
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[talljordan]

The first photo you posted also looks suspicious. There should only be 2 ground connections. Headlight and turn signal/parking light.

What is the third red spade connector wired to?
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[ashman40]

[talljordan]

Sand the metal body of the turn signal before hooking the alligator clip to it! They tarnish easily, and the tarnish prevents a good contact.
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[vamram]

Jordan - there are 3 ground wires in that picture: from the headlight, from the turn signal harness (the one that looks reddish in the picture) and from the electric window washer pump. The only thing I found on the right wiring are was this - the spade for the washer pump's ground wire had broken and it *may* have been making contact w/the hot wire, but I'm unable to confirm that. I haven't blown any fuses w/this issue.

I did disconnect and clean the ground connections and sanded the mounting point some just to clear out 5 years of accumulated crud. This had one effect - when I turn on the lights, only the parking light filament lights. Everything else stayed the same.

The last thing I did try before calling it a day was to disconnect all 4 wires from the turn signal housing (3 power and 1 ground) and tried the turn signals - same result. The 3 connected corners and taillights all flash when turning RIGHT. No change when I reconnected everything after fixing the busted washer pump ground.

Ashman, I hadn't seen these latest replies until a few minutes ago and now it's almost dark and drizzly so I'll have to perform your tests tomorrow. Your explanation makes sense. But...wouldn't the flashing problem stop if the front turn signal is completely disconnected...? Could this suggest that the problem is elsewhere? Perhaps in the passenger-side rear? And would pulling the fuse for say the right turn signal and retesting help isolate the problem?
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Couldn't resist, I put on my head lamp to test what happens w/the fuses. Per the '73 manual, #1-2 are the left and right parking lights and signals (note typo in the text for 1 & 2).

Here's what happened when I started pulling fuses:

A) #1 OUT, Flasher switch ON: all four corners flash as well as the driver side taillight; passenger side taillight is OFF.
B) #2 OUT, 1 IN, Flasher ON: same exact result as test A
C) #1 & 2 fuses both removed, Flasher ON: headlights and parking lights don't work; right front turn signal, rear turn signals and left taillight flash; driver front turn signal does *not* flash when engaging the right turn signal; right taillight does *not* come on.
D) Only #3 removed: per the manual
E) Only #4 removed: per the manual

Is anyone else as confused as I am? That's a lot of bleeding between circuits. Mind you, this is a car that has passed safety inspection 5 years in a row, so none of this was an issue until recently.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

[talljordan]

This is with just the right turn signal on? The headlights off?

It is illuminating the parking lights. The small bulb on the front should NOT be illuminated when the blinkers are on.

The issue is that it is activating the whole park light circuit. Thus it is lighting up all four corners! If you look at your wiring diagram, you can see the park lights are all wired together. M 2,4,5,7, 11. (note there are 2 M5s and M7s, I am referring to the one on the left side of the image)

My new guess is that you have some contact between the turn signal circuit, and the parking light circuit. This would cause the voltage to flow from the turn signal, through the "short" and since all 4 corners of the parking circuit are connected, they all light up. This also would explain why removing fuse 1 and fuse 2 made no real change.

There are a couple ways to trace where this is happening, it could be caused at the bulb, at the housing, in the internal wiring, or near the fuse box. First, remove EVERY turn signal bulb (all 4 corners), but not the parking light bulbs, then activate the turn signal. Do the parking lights still flash? If so, it is not a bulb issue.

Then remove all 4 housings and make sure that the hot contacts do not touch together.

You can also check for this by removing a single large front signal bulb, and check how much resistance is between the two contacts. It should be infinite.
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[vamram]

I'll try your test. Note - the front parking light and turn signals are a encased in a single dual filament bulb so removing it gets rid of the turn signal bulb as well (except for the small side marker bulb)....
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!