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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3785
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 3:01 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Switches activate at ca. 50 psi, brakes operate at 500-2000 psi.
You guys are inventing a solution for a non-existent problem other that poorly serviced brakes |
It is a real problem, with a good solution which is pedal position stop light switches. At highway speeds a car will
travel near 100 feet per second. Even an eighth of a second is near a car length.
With a position switch, the stop lights can illuminate before the brakes are activated
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Abscate 
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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The difference between pressure and pedal activated switches will be less than 100 msec.
That difference has already been shown to be inconsequential to crash data after a study of over 1.000.000 cases, NHTA 2013
Data beats conjecture.
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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That 100 millisecond (1/10th second) represents near ten feet, that is consequential and the delay time may certainly be more than that too
I dont see the data that says otherwise
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3785
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
The difference between pressure and pedal activated switches will be less than 100 msec.
That difference has already been shown to be inconsequential to crash data after a study of over 1.000.000 cases, NHTA 2013
Data beats conjecture. |
AI found this….
“Here's a summary of NHTSA's involvement and some relevant findings:
Center High Mounted Stop Lights (CHMSL): NHTSA has tested the effectiveness of CHMSLs. In 1988, they found that drivers following a truck with a CHMSL had a reaction time 0.09 seconds shorter than those following a truck without a CHMSL. This reduction in reaction time contributes to avoiding crashes.”
Note the last sentence above
No conjecture, 90 milliseconds (0.09 seconds) contributes to avoiding crashes
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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Here is data on led verse incandescent bulb reaction times…
https://chemistry.beloit.edu/BlueLight/pages/hp/an1155-3.pdf
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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If driving fairly conservatively, one would apply the brakes gradually as they approached a situation where they would need to slow down or stop. In this circumstance, a pedal activated switch will trigger the brake lights much sooner and for an extended time before additional pressure is applied to the brakes triggering the pressure switch in the master cylinder. ACVW drivers with healthy self preservation instincts would likely be more observant drivers and drive more cautiously. The point of the pedal switch is to give other drivers more time to notice that you are slowing/stopping. I have the pedal switch on both of my bugs as well as an LED third brake light in the rear window. I also have low profile LED driving lights on my '69 that I use as daytime running lights. Anything that isn't ostentatious that helps other drivers snap out of their distracted driving trance is a worthy investment of time and money ... IMO.
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"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3785
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2025 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
| If driving fairly conservatively, one would apply the brakes gradually as they approached a situation where they would need to slow down or stop. In this circumstance, a pedal activated switch will trigger the brake lights much sooner and for an extended time before additional pressure is applied to the brakes triggering the pressure switch in the master cylinder. ACVW drivers with healthy self preservation instincts would likely be more observant drivers and drive more cautiously. The point of the pedal switch is to give other drivers more time to notice that you are slowing/stopping. I have the pedal switch on both of my bugs as well as an LED third brake light in the rear window. I also have low profile LED driving lights on my '69 that I use as daytime running lights. Anything that isn't ostentatious that helps other drivers snap out of their distracted driving trance is a worthy investment of time and money ... IMO. |
Most smart what you wrote. , I really like your tag line saying regarding following distance and IQ also.
Another fact about stop light activation time for incandescent bulbs is that low voltage at the bulb will increase the time for the bulb to turn on. Voltage drops do to poor connections in the stop light circuit can slow the turn on and reduce brightness of the stop lights too.
"In addition, the turn-on time for
incandescent bulbs is adversely
affected by reduced voltage at the
signal light. A study by NHTSA of
546 large trucks showed that
some trucks have such large
voltage drops in the wiring that
the voltage across the signal lamp
is reduced to voltages in the range
of 5.5 to 8.8 V. A study by UMTRI
shows that at these reduced
voltages, the turn-on times of
incandescent bulbs can increase
by as much as a factor of two.
This means that braking response
time of the following driver would
be adversely affected by the
response time of the truck’s stop
lamp. In addition, the light output
of the signal light can be reduced
to 5% of the nominal value, which
could cause the following driver
to confuse the tail and stop signal
functions"
The above quoted from paper linked in my prior post above this post.
FIX YOUR VOLTAGE DROPS FOR SAFETY SAKE!!!!!
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Abscate
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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And NHTSA I 2013 showed no difference in accident rates between LED and Incan lights.
My conjecture on why there is no difference , despite there being 10s feet extra stopping distance, is that 9x% of rear ends are distracted driving events and the cushion doesn’t help
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
And NHTSA I 2013 showed no difference in accident rates between LED and Incan lights.
My conjecture on why there is no difference , despite there being 10s feet extra stopping distance, is that 9x% of rear ends are distracted driving events and the cushion doesn’t help |
Again, no link to your reference. Will you provide a referance?
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SixVolt
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Posts: 1143
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
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zerotofifty
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Posts: 3785
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
You can make your own pedal switch, assure the switch can handle the current load. Also upgrade to LED bulbs for faster turn on time and improved brightness. On my 61 Bug I placed extra lights in the rear window, these are trailer lights, located in the lower corners, and serve as both brake and turn lights. For the oval, smaller lights than I used will be preferable so as to keep the smaller window more clear. Some but extra lights inside the body louvers that are below the window. Others mount a big brake light(s) on the bumper, although not as visible as a high mount, that too can be a big improvement in safety.
Stay bright, stay safe!!!!
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SixVolt
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Posts: 1143
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| zerotofifty wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
You can make your own pedal switch, assure the switch can handle the current load. Also upgrade to LED bulbs for faster turn on time and improved brightness. On my 61 Bug I placed extra lights in the rear window, these are trailer lights, located in the lower corners, and serve as both brake and turn lights. For the oval, smaller lights than I used will be preferable so as to keep the smaller window more clear. Some but extra lights inside the body louvers that are below the window. Others mount a big brake light(s) on the bumper, although not as visible as a high mount, that too can be a big improvement in safety.
Stay bright, stay safe!!!! |
I have the 3rd brake light in the window and have upgraded to 6V LEDs in the taillight assemblies. (I know why am I running 6V?) Anyway, I need to figure out how I would make my own pedal switch? Would I just get a plunger behind the brake pedal that would activate a switch mounted on the firewall? |
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3785
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
| zerotofifty wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
You can make your own pedal switch, assure the switch can handle the current load. Also upgrade to LED bulbs for faster turn on time and improved brightness. On my 61 Bug I placed extra lights in the rear window, these are trailer lights, located in the lower corners, and serve as both brake and turn lights. For the oval, smaller lights than I used will be preferable so as to keep the smaller window more clear. Some but extra lights inside the body louvers that are below the window. Others mount a big brake light(s) on the bumper, although not as visible as a high mount, that too can be a big improvement in safety.
Stay bright, stay safe!!!! |
I have the 3rd brake light in the window and have upgraded to 6V LEDs in the taillight assemblies. (I know why am I running 6V?) Anyway, I need to figure out how I would make my own pedal switch? Would I just get a plunger behind the brake pedal that would activate a switch mounted on the firewall? |
Usually the plunger or a lever arm of the new switch is situated on the driver facing side of the pedal arm, so that as soon as the pedal is depressed ever so slightly, the plunger is no longer depressed by the pedal lever, and the switch is activated. To be clear, the activation is done from the rear of the pedal, meaning rear of car side, the side closest to the driver seat, the side furthest of the pedal from the firewall.
See how this one is done, as I described...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2140061
I own one of these for my 61 Bug I recommend it, well made.
I had at one time (35 years ago or so) even made my own, but mine was a bit delicate so I got one of these linked above when it became available. Note it is NOT designed for the pre 1958 roller type pedal cluster, but you should be able to modify it for that application I suspect, or build your own from scratch.
Note that this switch is not rated for the high current of 6 volt incandescent bulbs (6 volt bulbs draw twice the current of same watt 12 volt bulbs) However this switch will work fine on a 6 volt LED bulb as the LED bulb draws very little current.
I dont know how it fits with the old roller pedal set up, but you maybe able to modify its mount or make a new bracket to fit any sort of pedal assembly
When the pedal is at rest, the switch is depressed into the open position, as soon as the pedal is pushed for braking, the switch is released and the circuit is closed, the brake lights turn on.
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EverettB
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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Thank you
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zerotofifty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
And NHTSA I 2013 showed no difference in accident rates between LED and Incan lights.
My conjecture on why there is no difference , despite there being 10s feet extra stopping distance, is that 9x% of rear ends are distracted driving events and the cushion doesn’t help |
So if say 90% of rear end crashes are do to distracted driving, ok fine. But would not a more time advanced brake light activation serve to warn a distracted driver? After all it is safe to assume a distracted driver is NOT distracted 100% of the time. Even when distracted, that distracted driver does glance ahead once and a while, and thus if the leading cars brake lights are activated for a longer period, would not there be a higher rate of detection of said brake lights being illuminated during the time period of the distracted driver glancing ahead?
Furthermore, with a low pressure brake light switch or pedal lever activated switch, the leading car driver can depress the brake pedal gentally without actually having the brakes applied, thus the brake lights maybe illuminated for many seconds before a more rapid slowdown, at highway speeds, many seconds can mean many 100's of feet of stopping space.
If one installs say a 4 psi pressure switch, that switch may close well before the brake shoes actually even contact the brake drum. This assumes there is more than 1 psi of force per wheel needed to over come the resistance of the brake shoe return springs, and other friction sources at the wheels.
Response Time Is Safety. 
I will take the extra margin of safety, no downside, lots of upside.
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
There are some pretty creative folks on the Samba. Can you post a photo of your pedal assembly? Not sure how many of us can conjure up an image in our minds for imagineering purposes.
I have the pedal switch kit Keith sells in my '63 (still 6v). It's just a basic micro-switch. The bracket he fabricates is what makes it work on '58 and later. Any decent hardware store should have a bracket that can be modified (cut/bent/drilled) to work with that switch and your brake pedal. BTW ... IMO I think it is better to use a relay with this switch regardless of whether you have a 12v or 6v system and are using either incandescent or LEDs. The contacts in that switch will last much longer if they only need to carry enough current to trigger the relay rather than deal with the current needed to illuminate the bulbs.
I did find this photo in another discussion. Same as yours?
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"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"It's okay to think."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
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PeteSC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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A friend with a newly restored '65 bus had constant brake light issues related to today's aftermarket switches not working consistently. He tried 3 or 4 different switches, and the ones that worked would only light if the brakes were engaged as if avoiding a collision. I suggested this setup from Ross Wulf (I had seen it on their IG but had no personal experience with it), and it worked for him like a charm. Very minimal pedal engagement needed to get the brake lights working.
https://rosswulf.com/shop/ols/products/vw-quick-brake-light-switch-conversion-kit |
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danfromsyr
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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one of the most major issues on this issue is that the hydraulic brake pressure switches do NOT remain at a 50psi activation...
that the internal contacts can (will) move away and require more braking pressure over time, most especially after a hard braking event.
I have LED rear tail lights that will illuminate reflective surfaces (traffic cones etc) a mile behind me in the night and I can see that they're not on while I'm easing on the brakes at times..
my brakes (on my vanagon) are adjusted that they engage and start slowing fairly quickly.. but the lights will lag in sharing the news..
new replacement brake light switches are even quicker to go from ok to delayed.
adding in a mechanical switch INTO the existing hydraulic is fairly necessary in my opinion..
| Abscate wrote: |
The difference between pressure and pedal activated switches will be less than 100 msec.
That difference has already been shown to be inconsequential to crash data after a study of over 1.000.000 cases, NHTA 2013
Data beats conjecture. |
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vwwestyman
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Location: Wamego, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2025 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Using motorcycle brake light switch for quicker brake lights? |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
| I'd like a pedal switch set up, but the one advertised earlier indicates it only works on '58 and up beetles. I have a '57 Oval with a roller pedal accelerator (I know we're talking brakes), but IIRC, the whole pedal assembly is different on Ovals. Any suggestions on options I might use? I may try a low pressure switch as suggested earlier, but don't want to bugger my threads in the dual MC I've installed creating more problems. And my Oval is still 6V. |
There are some pretty creative folks on the Samba. Can you post a photo of your pedal assembly? Not sure how many of us can conjure up an image in our minds for imagineering purposes.
I have the pedal switch kit Keith sells in my '63 (still 6v). It's just a basic micro-switch. The bracket he fabricates is what makes it work on '58 and later. Any decent hardware store should have a bracket that can be modified (cut/bent/drilled) to work with that switch and your brake pedal. BTW ... IMO I think it is better to use a relay with this switch regardless of whether you have a 12v or 6v system and are using either incandescent or LEDs. The contacts in that switch will last much longer if they only need to carry enough current to trigger the relay rather than deal with the current needed to illuminate the bulbs.
I did find this photo in another discussion. Same as yours?
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Certainly a relay would take load off of the switch and are often a good choice to do so.
However, since a big part of the discussion is on the time it takes to illuminate the brake lights, wouldn't a relay also increase that time? It takes a few mincroseconds to close that connection.
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