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Escondido
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Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 11
Location: So.Cal.
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 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: Install Wind. Regulator,Window&Wing Window Asmbly. Pt 2 |
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| [url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5269934#5269934]Install Wind. Regulator,Window&Wing Window Asmbly. Pt 2[/url] |
If you want to go to Part 1:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5182002#5182002
This thread is regarding most of the details that relates to the installation of the driver’s door Window Regulator, Window, Wing Window Assembly (WWA), Side Air Duct and Interior Panel of a bay window van. The meat and potatoes were covered in gravy in the original thread which is the actual installation of the components. I guess if you are starting with everything assembled and you would like a step-by-step (a la John Muir style) for your time-space continuum you can start at the end of this thread, go backwards until you see the words, ““now go to the “Installing Wind. Regulator, Window, and Wing Window Assembly” thread””. Then come back to this thread and continue reverse engineering everything. This was done with no assistant. So here we go cadets!
I guess we can start with some of the parts you’re going to order. Your order will take a few days so as the UPS driver is puttin’ down the road with you “mercancia” in the back of his van you can start drilling down into this thread a little bit as you wait for the merchandise. For this job I bought from two suppliers so I could see what is out there on the market. The two parts houses that I used (based on the other threads in the forum) were Wolfsburg West and Calif. Import Parts, LTD. Other major parts houses in the states might carry one or both of the products that are mentioned here.
Note: I have opted not to discuss any pricing because that can change at any time based on the part house or the manufacturer. In addition it should be mentioned that the sales people are courteous in both companies. I have ran acrossed a few threads that focused on someone having an “off” day however if there was really a problem with a sales person the owner would be awake enough to deal with the problematic sales person.
On the left is the Upper Felt Channel from CIP and on the right is from WW. The left one will make it difficult to roll your window up and down, hence shorting the life of your Window Regulator. Some of you are reading this because your main problem is a broken Window Regulator so be sure not to skimp on felt channel quality. Here is what I bought:
Upper Felt Channel Part Numbers/Names
WW# 111837439D / Felt Channel
CIP# VWC-111-837-439-D2 / Door Glass Top Felt Channel
OK now, the CIP one on the left measures 16.5mm outside on the base (the area that inserts into the door frame). The WW one on the right measures 14.0mm. The door opening with the outside trim in place measures between 14-15mm, when measuring the top and the rear of the door window opening. The WW felt channel would be the winner between the two for installing the channel into the door frame.
It seems to me that the folks (in other threads) that were frustrated with the felt channel installation could have been using the wider felt channel. Maybe next time they could get the felt channel that measures 14.0mm across the base, this would make both their job and Window Regulator’s easier. I would rather be cranking the window up and down with the right one…wouldn’t you?
On the Small Vertical Felt Channel I remember that they were both the same from both companies. Vertical Small Felt Channel Part Numbers/Names (mounts onto vent wing division bar):
WW# 111837433A / Felt Channel
CIP# VWC-311-837-433-A2 Vertical Front Window Felt Channels
On the rubber triangular Wing Window Seal, each company had the same product:
WW# 241837465 Front Door Vent Window Flap Seal
CIP# VWC-231-837-465-1 Vent Window Flap Seal
Note: When there is a choice on quality buy the more expensive part. You will not appreciate those words until you finish and realized that you just put in a whole weekend of your time, killed the Bud 18 pack, kicked the dog, cat and your significant other is not talking to you anymore.
During the process of dissembling the components I discovered that the top screw for the Wing Window Assembly (WWA, here on out) was stripped.
I raced the threads with a tap then discovered an important detail. The length of that screw cannot be any longer than the original. One or two treads longer and it will bottom out (top out in this instance) on the door frame, hence not allowing the screw to tighten the upper flange of the WWA. Some of ya‘all that do not have grinders to cut a length down can do the washer stack up trick.
For the select group that have access to saws and grinders and you want to shorten a threaded part, here is a trick to save time deburring your cut or grind. All you need is to find something with the same diameter and threads per inch (or mm) as your patient. Usually it is a nut, in my case I found a motorcycle fairing clip. If it is a nut; go find another so you can lock’em at the height where you want the extended screw to disappear. The locked nuts will keep the screw from spinning and give you something to clamp on. If you’re sawing, the edge of the nut will be your guide for the saw blade. If your grinding, then stop when you reach the nut and/or burn the hell out of your fingers because:
a) You did not cool the part in water soon enough.
b) You were operating equipment intoxicated again.
c) Significant other was talking and you were not listening nor concentrating on task at hand.
d) Had no vise grips nor friends that owned any.
Now here is were the magician arrives on the scene. Unscrew your screw and the threads will roll your burr up and away. Magic! Just make sure the screw bottoms out on the head before is bottom out on the threads.
Workshop
OK the UPS guy just left your house and there lies the brown cubed Holy Grail that bears the glory of what is to come. Now if you are like me when I get VW parts via UPS, I usually go regular shipment which sometimes takes a week which is just long enough to forget about the project. So when the brown cube arrives it serves as reminder just when you thought you were caught up on things around the house. UPS red label are for ambitious folks.
First take the Window Regulator and add some grease on the ribbed flex cable. Take off the tube and lube away. Add the handle to it and rotate it back and forth so it gets lubed well.
Take the new Outer Seal/Bezel and clip it on the door then bend over the tab located on top near the front of the door. Add some tape to keep the Bezel in place until the clips are in place. Details about the clips are in the other thread.
Now go find your WWA and remove the Wing Window by grinding off the rivet.
Take the WWA and remove the old Small Felt Channel and install the Vent Window Flap Seal for the Wing Window. Use some talcum power to add some slickness to the rubber. Pinch in the rubber and cut off any extra length. No gaps allowed on either end! Trim the length of the Small Felt Channel with some wire cutters or something.
Clean up the aluminum channel of the old glue.
Add some glue to the aluminum channel and the back (not the sides) of the Small Felt Channel.
Assemble components…Uh why is this glue coming out of the sides? It keeps expanding!
It’s actually forcing the channel out of the WWA! I added counter pressure but to no avail.
Then I tried clamping devises
I ended up with this. What a joke! I used this gorilla glue and it did say that it expands however it did not say how much it expands! Stay with ATV glue or something else that does not expand. I would do this step the day before assembling everything if possible. This is a good example of gluing gone wrong.
Now its time for the most visible seal of all. The WWA seal! First open up the vents with a knife. The left is the new one and the right is the old one. Slice an opening for the bracket that holds the rivet and allows the WW to pivot.
Spank on some powder on the rubber, then use something dull to help snap the seal into the “U” shaped frame.
Add some more powder and remove the ends of the Vent Window Flap Seal then tuck the thin tongues on the top and bottom inside the channel, between the Triangular Vertical Rubber Seal and the aluminum. I am not completely sure on this location; I just copied it form my other van.
Spank on some more powder, then assemble the Wing Window.
Old one on the right, new one on the left.
I would not buy the new rivet because you need a specific rivet tool to mushroom over the new rivet when you assemble everything. It is probably a $50 type tool that you will use twice in your lifetime. I just went with the screw and nut combo package. It adds that industrial look to your van.
Well, I received some timely pointers from the Samba’Hood regarding the industrialized look of the nut and bolt combo, hence this next photo. The fastener could allow someone to unscrew the bolt and break into you van!
It looks like the original rivet design would be the likely replacement. I would recommend smashing the rivet before you install the WWA back into the door (unfortunately this step was done after the thread was originally posted) because you will have other larger clamping devises at your disposal and you will not have a door frame in your way. I resorted to the vise grip with a ground angle at the end of a socket head screw. It was a slow process of getting the alignment with the rivet, screw, and with just a little clamping pressure from the vise grip so the rivet mushroomed evenly. The best scenario is the ball bearing suggestion at the end of the thread.
Don’t forget the fiber washer!
No, I never forget my tools and leave them outside in the rain! What do you think I am! The alignment between the rivet and the screw is off a little off with this try.
On this one the alignment between the screw and rivet is pretty close to being straight. Only smash it a little so if you are off you can over compensate on the alignment in order to get the flare concentric on the diameter again.
I smashed the rivet about three times to get this amount of flare.
Then flatten it until you can rotate the Wing Window and the rivet does not move around. It is best to slowly creep up on the final smash, too much and it will be too tight.
Final Rivet Shots
These shots were taken at Tony’s Auto Repair in Yucaipa, CA when I picked up the van this week. He did the interior panel on the passenger side. Top quality, always!
Now go to the “Installing Wind. Regulator, Window, and Wing Window Assembly” thread, then return back to this one to finish it off:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=454316
OK, you are back with a pretty big feather in your cap. For those who are just going to reuse their interior panel, you are done. Hang up your uniform and go back to civilian life. However, if you want to take this project to the next level then carry on solder ‘cause victory is ours!
During the process of dissembling the components I discovered that I had broken plastic tabs that held the threaded clips in place in the Air Duct.
So I found a used set on Craig’s List and had them shipped over. Once disassembled it was clear that broken plastic tabs on the Air Ducts is a common problem. Now I was stuck with two sets of Air Ducts with some broken plastic tabs on all of them!
Repair was in order. I opted for thin aluminum angle stock for the new brackets. The length of the tabs were ½” so I Mickey Moused a vise onto the table and started producing brackets for the Air Ducts.
Another issue with the Air Ducts was the broken plastic end bosses. Fortunately, for you and me, those Germans were F-ing smart. The end boss holes go all the way through comrades! All you need is a longer screw and that takes care of that issue.
Finished with the Air Duct!
Now bring in the new panel and release the hounds! (English accent implied) If you squint enough you might notice that the original has elongated holes whereas the new one from CIP (TMI is the manf.) has no perforation in the vinyl at all. On the back of the panel there are holes but I found them to be small so I opened them up with a ½” drill by hand (to prevent drilling through the vinyl) and some of the holes needed to be elongated with a utility knife. The out of whack holes were located on the tabs that were not replaced with the aluminum brackets.
Now with the Air Duct assembled and snap buttons places around the perimeter of the panel it is Vapor Barrier time. If you want the real deal go here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=445486
For installing the vapor barrier, I just wanted something that worked and was quick to finish. I used painter plastic and used double stick tape in some of the areas. I added a back flap for the speaker and most importantly is to seal below the drip hole. This drip hole is like the main drain to get most of the top condensation or water away from panel. Be sure not to cover it.
I added double stick tape along the white line area.
It is better not to have creases along the taped area. It kind of defeats the sealing purpose.
Sawzall with small blade for the tight radius for the speaker holes
Snap buttons with no plastic receivers. I bent over a couple of the snap buttons trying to snap them, since I was out of the black plastic receivers. Please order beforehand. They went in hard but I got by.
Painters tool for unsnapping the buttons.
The interior passenger side panel was installed by Eric at Tony’s Auto Repair. He too experienced hole position problems for the Air Duct holes using the TMI interior door panel that was bought at CIP.
Eric used a Roto-Zip bit (it is drywall cutter for elec. boxes) to do the speaker openings and the Air Duct holes in the interior panel. On the Air Duct holes he had the bit follow the steel runner that is inserted in the plastic Air Duct with elongated holes in them.
Finished. Now go and make your significant other happy….and be happy together! Escondido.
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71' Passenger Bus Blue/White
71' Passenger Bus Blue/White
Looking for another 71' Bus
Last edited by Escondido on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:06 am; edited 6 times in total |
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BusterBrown
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2009
Posts: 1397
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent! You win Technical Write-up of the Day award. Where do we send the money?
Added to my favorite technical advice folder for later use. 
I need to get those door panels off soon anyway, as both front door key locks are inoperable, and I have to get in through the slider every time the doors have been locked.
Now here's a little tip for you, if I may be so bold; 1600 X 1200 pixel photos can cause it to take awhile to load a page like this. If you can reduce them down to around 800 X 600, you'll help keep everyone in quick download mode.
Thanks for the great effort in sharing this.
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1977 Transporter
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rsbadura
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2009
Posts: 656
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Two notes:
1.) "vapor" barrier
The original "vapor" (it is more than vapor at rain) barrier is not only a simple sheet - it has two layers starting over the door ventilation. The inside layer as back flap should protect against rain water running from the windows to the foil bottom out the door to indoor. The water should stay in the door and leave it down the step tread.
2.) killing the wing window rivet
I didn't kill the visible rivet outside - the hinge with this rivet is fixed unvisible with two other simple rivets under the gasket. COuld be fixed again with screws or simple hollow rivets.
With the solution with an outside screw nut your car could be opened in a few seconds by anyone.
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Rolf-Stephan Badura
1970 VW Karmann-Ghia Coupe
1979 VW Bus L to camper conversion
1982 Eriba Pan travel trailer
2017 VW CrossPolo
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Escondido
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 11
Location: So.Cal.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: Rivet |
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Good input on both items. I did buy the actual rivet with the fiber washer, so all I need is a rivet tool or do some type of stainless or aluminum pop rivet.
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71' Passenger Bus Blue/White
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Looking for another 71' Bus |
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El_Güero
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Joined: August 02, 2006
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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-5658 1111...(phone rings)...
-Hola?-
-Buenos días, tengo una queja sobre el tipo ese que esta reparando el mecanismo de la aleta de la combi azul con blanco-
-Dígame que sucede?-
-Es que veo que trabaja y trabaja en su combi y nomás le ha dado un trago a la caguama, que onda?-
-Lo que pasa es que ayer lo convencimos de que dejara de beber cerveza light... y le dimos una Victoria y pues ya ve que no pasa igual que con esas cervezas; uno no necesita beberse dos six´s para marearse-
-Ahh chingá ok, no pues dígale que felicidades por la chamba que se reventó, si que pone atención en los detalles es vato, le quedo bien chingona la puerta-
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Escondido
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 11
Location: So.Cal.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: Translation |
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For others who do need some translation, he is imitating a call:
-5658 1111...(phone rings)...
This number is actually on the back of the van. It is a tip of the hat towards the passenger buses in Mexico City. All of them say “QUEJAS 5658-1111” which means, COMMENTS OR COMPLANTS, regarding the bus driver. I would guess it is a requirment that it is posted on the bus and most likely no one calls because nothing would be resolved.
-Hello?- Dispatcher
-Good morning, I have a complaint about the guy who is repairing his wing window on his blue and white bus.-
-Please tell me what happened?- Dispatcher
-What I see is that this guy keeps working and working on his bus but he only took one swallow of his beer! What’s up!!- There is a bottle of beer in the back of a photo, almost full, about ¾ into the thread.
-What happened was that we convincied him to stop drinking Light Beer... and gave him a Victoria Beer instead and as you can see that it is not the same as with those other beers; in other words you do not need to drink two six packs to get buzzed!- Dispatcher
Well fuck! I just want to say congratulations on the work and the attention that this guy gave regarding the details on the thread is bitchen, the door turn out really nice!
El Guero
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cdennisg
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Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20271
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Rivet |
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| Escondido wrote: |
Good input on both items. I did buy the actual rivet with the fiber washer, so all I need is a rivet tool or do some type of stainless or aluminum pop rivet.
Escondido |
Great write up. I will be referencing it soon as I tear apart the doors of my 70.
About the rivets and the tool to set them. I have seen, in the split bus forum, a method that uses a vice grip and a ball bearing to crush the end of the rivet. It turned out perfect, and cost virtually nothing.
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Escondido
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 11
Location: So.Cal.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: Rivet Tool |
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Hey CDennisQ:
Great idea with the ball bearing!
Does any one have any other recommendations on the rivet tool to use?
I found this on the McMaster-Carr website.
# 6663A21
Setting Tool for Solid Rivet for 3/32" Rivet Dia, .109" Setter Hole Dia
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rivet Tool |
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| Escondido wrote: |
Hey CDennisQ:
Great idea with the ball bearing!
Does any one have any other recommendations on the rivet tool to use?
I found this on the McMaster-Carr website.
# 6663A21
Setting Tool for Solid Rivet for 3/32" Rivet Dia, .109" Setter Hole Dia
Escondido |
Use a bb then a larger ball bearing. Worked fine when I did it. As for the bolt:
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| I just went with the screw and nut combo package |
guess what - easier now for a thief.
As for things not fitting - We used the busdepot scraper kit and it was Ok. Not perfect but Ok. I used a pice of 2x4 and a hammer to seat it then used a piece of aluminum in it to open it up for the window. These are 40 year old cars. We are lucky to have parts.
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Escondido
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 11
Location: So.Cal.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: BB/Ball Bearing Deformation of the Wing Widow Rivet |
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It seems that the rivet portion is the thinnest area of this thread. Today I will buy some of the rivets online, delete the nut and bolt photo and replace it with some new BB/ball bearing rivet deform photos.
Can you elaborate more on the installation of the scrapper kit? Was the 2 x 4 used on snapping the outside and/or inside window seal/scrapper?
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