Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Horn grounding issues?
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Horn Early and Late ground Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
Jumper to where? If from the shaft to the steering box (e.g. across the rubber isolator), then the shaft would become grounded, causing the horn to blow - unless there were some models where the upper shaft bearing is somehow insulated? Have not seen this (yet...)


I think I know where my confusion lies.

68-74 to VIN 214 2 164060
The brown ground wire that runs through the steering shaft connects directly to #32 the coupling flange. It must be isolated from the steering shaft.
Brown wire > #32 coupling flange > Earth
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


L74-79 Column changed. Horn becomes powered through turn switch. Slip ring added to the steering wheel.
No longer is there a brown wire through the center of the steer shaft. The steering shaft is now the ground path.
Jumper wire goes from the steering shaft to #32 coupling flange.
Steering shaft > Jumper wire to #32 coupling flange > Earth.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Tcash


Last edited by Tcash on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:10 am; edited 10 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kreemoweet
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3318
Location: Seattle, WA
kreemoweet is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's an early bay versus late bay difference. Most of the time, that caveat is not mentioned in posts about the horn circuit. Confusion ensues. That's why
technical questions should always specify model year, and any non-stock items, if known.
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 3254
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are correct - I remember now. The later Bays have a completely different horn button assembly than the early bays - has a brush and slip ring kind of thing. Most buses with horn issues seem to be the early bays. This must be why...

"A mind is a terrible thing to lose..."
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:

"A mind is a terrible thing to lose..."


Not lost just buried!

Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
alikatcraig
Samba Member


Joined: September 09, 2007
Posts: 554
Location: Anaheim, CA
alikatcraig is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all of your help with this. I had previously only played with late model bugs, and thought this wired the same - wrong! Treat the entire steering column as live and then you work out that ground (the steering box) means that you attach the ground wire through the column to the nut/bolt that attaches the steering box to the coupling disc and NOT to the ones that attach the steering column to it. Bingo, my permanent horn issue went away. I did have to fabricate the missing plastic sleeve under the steering lock unit from a salt shaker though, until I find an original replacement.
_________________
1967 Ghia
1971 Deluxe Microbus
1974 Convertible Bug
1973 Standard Bug
1998 Mexican Bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
stwesty
Samba Member


Joined: May 10, 2015
Posts: 128
Location: Vancouver, Canada
stwesty is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my bag of links from when I fixed my horn a month back:

Horn wiring repair (includes details on the jumper wire)

Horn wire in steering column

Beetle horn troubleshooting (not bays but useful to understand the logic/madness behind some of the designs)

Is a 79 horn setup different?

... plus all of the previous info posted by Tcash in this thread and others.
_________________
1974 Westfalia, automatic, dual-carb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mattlockwood
Samba Member


Joined: June 15, 2012
Posts: 359
Location: KCMO
mattlockwood is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues?????? Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:

Key off there should be no continuity between the Column and Ground.
Tcash


busdaddy wrote:
It's likely the column tube is grounding somewhere, the ignition switch should have a plastic sleeve in it where it clamps onto the tube and the base should sit in a plastic collar at the floor plate.


oh my gosh! These two sentences cleared the whole horn issue up for me, and now it makes sense.

Key off, I get a tone when I connect the inner and outer tubes via leads..so the two tubes are grounding out. I know I have the bushing at the top that separates the ignition housing from the outer tube, but the rubber grommet at the bottom is long gone.

Is the rubber grommet (not the plastic one) at the bottom go between the inner and outer tubes? That would seem to make sense. I believe its NLA, so I could use inner tube or lots of electrical tape?

Tcash and Busdaddy to the rescue, again Very Happy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by mattlockwood on Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mattlockwood
Samba Member


Joined: June 15, 2012
Posts: 359
Location: KCMO
mattlockwood is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Success! So I took the ignition pod off. Then the outer steering tube off.

Used an old piece of intertube on the bottom of the steering column, and reassembled the whole thing. Ohm'd the the steering column and the tube, no continuity! Rewired the ignition pod, attached the battery and turned the key. No horn! Laughing

Jumped a wire between the steering column and the tube, horn works Laughing Laughing

Problem solved!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kreemoweet
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3318
Location: Seattle, WA
kreemoweet is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

mattlockwood wrote:
Jumped a wire between the steering coumn and the tube, horn works


Uhh, I think you may have misinterpreted something.
The steering column and the column tube are SUPPOSED to be electrically connected, i.e., have 0 ohms between them. There is therefore NOTHING that sits between the column and
the column tube. If they were isolated from each other, the horn would not work properly.
The horn is most definitely NOT supposed to sound when you jump a wire between the column tube and column.
There is NO rubber grommet at the bottom of the column tube. There's a rubber band that covers the holes in the column tube, to prevent drafts, and a hard plastic ring that
sits between the column tube and the coverplate, to keep the column/column tube isolated from ground.
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mattlockwood
Samba Member


Joined: June 15, 2012
Posts: 359
Location: KCMO
mattlockwood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Ahh! I left out the words "horn ground wire".Should read "when I jump a wire between the steering tube and the column horn ground wire, the horn sounds"


I see that there is a rubber gasket and a plastic grommet at the bottom of the tube. That's what I have.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vocho_702
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.A.
vocho_702 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Reviving this old post since I am working on the horn now.
I do not have an insulating ring between the shaft and tube. Can I find this part or is it NLA? Can I use something else instead?
_________________
Life is short, enjoy the ride...in a VW

69 Sunroof Beetle-AirheadParts Treffen 18
DD-70 Baywindow Camper-AirheadParts Treffen 21
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 36604
Location: Just east of Sack of Tomatoes
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

vocho_702 wrote:
Reviving this old post since I am working on the horn now.
I do not have an insulating ring between the shaft and tube. Can I find this part or is it NLA? Can I use something else instead?


what year bus?

thru serial 211-2300-001 part # 211 415 617 A
from serial 212-2000-001 part # 211 415 617 B
I believe in 1975 on they were not used at all
_________________
Pronouns:He, His, Mine

sometimes the most simple answers to the most simple question are difficult for the simple minded to comprehend.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vocho_702
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.A.
vocho_702 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Sorry about that...noob move.
It is a 70.
_________________
Life is short, enjoy the ride...in a VW

69 Sunroof Beetle-AirheadParts Treffen 18
DD-70 Baywindow Camper-AirheadParts Treffen 21
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kreemoweet
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3318
Location: Seattle, WA
kreemoweet is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

vocho_702 wrote:
I do not have an insulating ring between the shaft and tube. Can I find this part or is it NLA? Can I use something else instead?


There is no "insulating ring between the shaft and tube". Those two items are supposed to be electrically connected, not insulated from each other.
Maybe you could specify the # of the part in the Bentley diagram in the 1st post on this page?
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
busdaddy
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 47374
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
busdaddy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
vocho_702 wrote:
I do not have an insulating ring between the shaft and tube. Can I find this part or is it NLA? Can I use something else instead?


There is no "insulating ring between the shaft and tube". Those two items are supposed to be electrically connected, not insulated from each other.
Maybe you could specify the # of the part in the Bentley diagram in the 1st post on this page?

I suspect it's #11, if a real one can't be found a section of plastic sheet (ice cream pail lid?) can be fashioned to work.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Wanted, OG paint 1971 Niagara blue decklid.

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 36604
Location: Just east of Sack of Tomatoes
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

there is an insulating plastic piece that the tube goes into that keeps it from the base. That is the part number I posted. There is a seal that goes between the tube and plastic but that part is not the insulator, the plastic is. The seal does just that - seal. Parts 13 and 14. If you are missing something other please post the number in the image so folks here can answer your question. Part #12 wasn't available from dealers even back in the 1970's. I remember trying to order one when rebuilding a 1971 column about 1978. I think that the dealer looked into it, and the only way to get them was to order a new tube. It may be that the locking mechanism goes into part #12 but don't quote me on that. Or it may be one of the parts others have suggested. Until you post the part number in the image we won't know.

211 415 599 A is that part number 12 if that is the piece. BusOK.de has a photo but none for sale.

if you read German, here is a 1974 technical bulletin:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Pronouns:He, His, Mine

sometimes the most simple answers to the most simple question are difficult for the simple minded to comprehend.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vocho_702
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.A.
vocho_702 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Yes I did mean #11. So what is that “insulating ring” insulating? Now I am just curious since I just got my horn working the correct way a few minutes ago. Thank you all
_________________
Life is short, enjoy the ride...in a VW

69 Sunroof Beetle-AirheadParts Treffen 18
DD-70 Baywindow Camper-AirheadParts Treffen 21
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
busdaddy
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 47374
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
busdaddy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

#11 goes between the ignition switch housing and the tube, mine slid out and fell down the tube 2-3 years ago and the horn still works normally, but it must do something or VW wouldn't have bothered installing it. I'm sure one day my horn will start blowing all by itself, when that happens I'll put it back where it belongs.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Wanted, OG paint 1971 Niagara blue decklid.

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 36604
Location: Just east of Sack of Tomatoes
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

#11 in the Bentley image is the same as #12 in the VW Fiche that I listed a part number for. It isolates the locking mechanism from the tube as I recall. It has been NLA since the 1970's. BusOk.de shows a photo of one but no price.

https://www.bus-ok.de/T2-Isolierring-fuer-Lenkrohr-NOS-869-774-orig-VW-Verglnr-211415599-A




.
_________________
Pronouns:He, His, Mine

sometimes the most simple answers to the most simple question are difficult for the simple minded to comprehend.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eddie.would.go
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2005
Posts: 56
Location: in the garage
eddie.would.go is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Horn grounding issues? Reply with quote

Rather than starting a new thread I thought I'd post something here. I have a 70 bus, the issue i'm having is that the horn works fine but it will go off when there is any sort of load/ torque on the steering wheel. I have the front end on a jack stand and if I hold the tire back with my knee and turn the steering wheel to push on my knee the horn goes off. If I just grab the front tire and turn the front end back and forth it's fine. If I turn the steering wheel slowly it's fine. Only when there is a load on the front tires like dry steering does the horn go off. Any ideas?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB