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obnoxiousblue
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2007
Posts: 3027
Location: East Northport, NY
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I see what you did there! Thanks tcash!
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Mike
1964 Beetle
2001 Eurovan Camper |
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IggsVW
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2014
Posts: 1
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: Horn Success |
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| Thank you all, for all this great information. This was truly a challenge, but finally sweet success. |
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josh71bus
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2011
Posts: 22
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| 70Crew wrote: |
There are 2 wires you need to connect on the steering column.
The first wire is the column tube ground. There is a short wire that comes off the main wiring harness and ends up right next to the steering gear box. This wire needs to be routed through the metal loop (A) on the underside of the cover plate and then attached to the tab that sticks out from the end of the column tube (B). These tabs break off easily; I have 3 column tubes and 2 of the ground tabs are missing (broken off). I attached this ground wire with the steering column, gear box and cover plate in place. It took a lot of cussing, a shop light and a pair of Harbor Freight extra-long needle nose pliers but it is definitely possible (see space G.... yep, that's pretty tight). The alternative is to remove the gear box which I didn’t want to hassle with.
The second wire (also a ground wire?) is brown and runs from the top of the steering column (C) to just above the gear box. The steering column is hollow and this wire runs through the center of it. The bottom end of this wire has a large loop wire terminal that fits around one of the 4 hex head M8 bolts that connect the steering column to the coupling disk and top of the gear box. There is a small gap (D) between the coupling disk and top of the gearbox which allows you to feed that wire (E) from the column and around the corner to one of the hex head bolts (F). I attached it on the bottom, under a nut, so that the contact was metal to metal rather than nut to rubber. I’m not 100% sure that is how it was done from the factory but it makes sense to me (anyone out there know better?).
Bentley says you are supposed to install the column tube first and then the steering column from underneath. That was not possible without a lift so I installed the entire assembly from the top. I did it alone and the only part that was remotely difficult was attaching the aforementioned column tube ground wire.
Good luck and holler if you have any questions.
Chris
(MiOdy81) |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 52792
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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You have to type something after/under the last [quote] if you want to ask a question 
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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stwesty
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2015
Posts: 128
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| 70Crew wrote: |
There are 2 wires you need to connect on the steering column.
The first wire is the column tube ground. There is a short wire that comes off the main wiring harness and ends up right next to the steering gear box. This wire needs to be routed through the metal loop (A) on the underside of the cover plate and then attached to the tab that sticks out from the end of the column tube (B). These tabs break off easily; I have 3 column tubes and 2 of the ground tabs are missing (broken off). I attached this ground wire with the steering column, gear box and cover plate in place. It took a lot of cussing, a shop light and a pair of Harbor Freight extra-long needle nose pliers but it is definitely possible (see space G.... yep, that's pretty tight). The alternative is to remove the gear box which I didn’t want to hassle with.
The second wire (also a ground wire?) is brown and runs from the top of the steering column (C) to just above the gear box. The steering column is hollow and this wire runs through the center of it. The bottom end of this wire has a large loop wire terminal that fits around one of the 4 hex head M8 bolts that connect the steering column to the coupling disk and top of the gear box. There is a small gap (D) between the coupling disk and top of the gearbox which allows you to feed that wire (E) from the column and around the corner to one of the hex head bolts (F). I attached it on the bottom, under a nut, so that the contact was metal to metal rather than nut to rubber. I’m not 100% sure that is how it was done from the factory but it makes sense to me (anyone out there know better?).
Bentley says you are supposed to install the column tube first and then the steering column from underneath. That was not possible without a lift so I installed the entire assembly from the top. I did it alone and the only part that was remotely difficult was attaching the aforementioned column tube ground wire.
Good luck and holler if you have any questions.
Chris
(MiOdy81) |
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1974 Westfalia, automatic, dual-carb |
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toddb_67
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Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 1345
Location: Hansville, WA
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4097
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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"Constantly" means what?
As soon as the battery is hooked up?
As soon as the ignition switch is turned on?
Continuously, or intermittently (as in whenever the steering wheel is turned, for instance)?
Generally speaking, it means you have a short to ground somewhere between the "ground" terminal on the horn, and the horn button. This includes the wire to the
tab on the bottom of the steering column tube, the steering column tube, the steering shaft, and the steering wheel. All that stuff needs to be isolated from
ground somehow.
The year of your bus most certainly matters, since VW changed how the horn circuit works (in mid-74? I dunno), and the later busses have a "grounded" steering
column/shaft, and not "hot" as in yours and other earlier bays.
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
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toddb_67
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 1345
Location: Hansville, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
"Constantly" means what?
As soon as the battery is hooked up?
As soon as the ignition switch is turned on?
Continuously, or intermittently (as in whenever the steering wheel is turned, for instance)?
Generally speaking, it means you have a short to ground somewhere between the "ground" terminal on the horn, and the horn button. This includes the wire to the
tab on the bottom of the steering column tube, the steering column tube, the steering shaft, and the steering wheel. All that stuff needs to be isolated from
ground somehow.
The year of your bus most certainly matters, since VW changed how the horn circuit works (in mid-74? I dunno), and the later busses have a "grounded" steering
column/shaft, and not "hot" as in yours and other earlier bays. |
Sorry, should have been more specific. The horn comes on as soon as the ignition is on. I have traced the wire from the grounded tab on the bottom of the steering tube to the horn and it is in good shape. So does that mean that my steering column is somehow grounded somewhere? As I'm typing this I feel kind of stupid for not being able to wrap my brain around this simple electrical circuit. I hate messing with wires!
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1970 Pastel White Westfalia
1971 Super Beetle Convertible (sold) http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=582365&highlight=
1970 Squareback "Savanna" (sold)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714683
1974 Karmann Ghia- current project, 1967cc engine. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=775207
“I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.” - Dudley Field Malone |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 52792
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps start by prying the horn button out and seeing if anything's touching in there, the wire coming up the middle of the steering shaft should be grounded, the shaft and everything else should not, disconnect the wire from the horn or you'll get false continuity readings. The silver ring is (should be) suspended on springs with special plastic washers and only contacts the steering wheel when pushed.
 Caution, pry the black plastic center button out of the silver ring, the ring stays in the wheel
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4097
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Many people have difficulty understanding this circuit because of unfortunate terminology people insist on using, and on VW's unfortunate use of a solid brown wire
to connect the horn to the steering column. That wire is not really a "ground" wire. When the ignition switch is turned on, there is a continuous metallic path from
that wire (and therefore from the connected steering column tube/shaft/wheel) to the + terminal on the battery, i.e. it is "hot". It is only grounded when the horn button (the circuit
switch) is pushed. So, it probably should be referred to as the "switch" wire or something.
| toddb_67 wrote: |
| . . . the grounded tab ... |
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
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alikatcraig
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2007
Posts: 563
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have a pic of what a good steering column ground tab should look like with column out of the bus? Mine needs replacing, and I would like the get the shape/angle right.
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1967 Ghia
1971 Deluxe Microbus
1974 Convertible Bug
1973 Standard Bug
1998 Mexican Bug |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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telford dorr
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 3625
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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For a continually blowing horn, check the plastic insulators on the steering column - one at the bottom to isolate it from the bottom 'hat', and one around the top to keep it isolated from the upper dash mount.
Notes:
- the brown wire in the center of the steering shaft ('C' in the pics above) is ground. It grounds to one of the two steering gear bolts ('F') on the steering shaft coupling, and then to ground through the steering gears themselves.
- the steering column acts as a signal wire from the button to the horn. If anything grounds to the column (or anything clamped to it), the horn will below. Likely candidate: turn signal switch.
- the connection to the column ('B' in the above pic) is in a virtually inaccessible place, and is a PITA to get wired properly. You must run the wire through the retaining strap ('A') in the lower column mount 'hat', otherwise it will eventually get tangled in, and ripped out by the steering shaft coupling.
- if the lower column mount 'hat' isn't positioned properly, it will touch the steering shaft, and the horn will blow (intermittently).
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'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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alikatcraig
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2007
Posts: 563
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I have welded a new tab on the bottom of the column and run a new wire down the shaft. Horn comes on with ignition. I have a new plastic insulator on the bottom. If I connect the horn ground wire to the through steering shaft wire then the horn button works as it should - problem is that use would shred the wires. Should I be looking at the plastic insulator at the top of the column or ??
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1967 Ghia
1971 Deluxe Microbus
1974 Convertible Bug
1973 Standard Bug
1998 Mexican Bug |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Horn wiring |
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