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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 951
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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 Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:03 am Post subject: Re: My attempt at a transaxle cooler (manual trans) |
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| insyncro wrote: |
I have replaced the cost effective/eBay pump that Gears and I discussed a while back with a Tilton.
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Long story short...I only recommend using a fluid pump that has been designed for use with gear oil. |
Yeah it's either a Tilton, Weddle, or RB Racing gear oil pump for me, that became quickly apparent during research. Can you comment on how loud the Tilton is when installed on a Vanagon? I've read on other forums that it can be atrociously loud, but those were much older posts (and thus pumps) on entirely different vehicles.
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She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: Re: My attempt at a transaxle cooler (manual trans) |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
Anyone here end up running the Tilton pump on their van? I'm interested in hearing reports on how loud it is.
Also, anyone ever try the overflow tank? |
I have years of using Tilton pumps on many different differentials.
There is plenty of information about them in Porsche forums as most racers cool the diff.
I have replaced the cost effective/eBay pump that Gears and I discussed a while back with a Tilton.
The only reason, I have a stack of donated Tiltons and want all of my systems built from the same parts.
Long story short...I only recommend using a fluid pump that has been designed for use with gear oil. |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 951
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: My attempt at a transaxle cooler (manual trans) |
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Anyone here end up running the Tilton pump on their van? I'm interested in hearing reports on how loud it is.
Also, anyone ever try the overflow tank?
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She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10739
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| FrankenSubySyncro wrote: |
| I saw temps as high as 165 (with pump and fan on) last weekend from Ellensburg to Hood river. The average temp was about 150. |
Estimating what the temp might be without a system (and a fan!) is kind of scary.
Wow this whole thing about adding an entire "SYSTEM" has me a little worried. Sounds easy at first, but the devil is in the details and the priming/drainback, and temp thresholds…..man its getting complicated.
Temp guage to evaluate the driving stresses sounds easy.
The oiling mods, and plumbing outlets at rebuild time sounds like a good way to go. And then when the pioneers figure out the cooling system, you'll have the ports ready for it.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17250
Location: Brookeville, MD
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FrankenSubySyncro
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: Vancouver, WA.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sodo, in case you haven't seen this thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...;start=160
Also check out page 10. Just cooling the oil and returning it back through the fill hole does not solve the oil delivery problem to 4th gear and the main shaft bearing. I saw temps as high as 165 (with pump and fan on) last weekend from Ellensburg to Hood river. The average temp was about 150.
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Syncronize it!
1987 Franken Syncro (converted 2WD auto)
2004 2.5 SOHC Subaru
F & R lockers, decoupler, SS, 6.17 R&P
Trans Cooler
EMPI race prepped 930 CVs and axles
Bilstein coilover front, rear ProComp MX-6066R shocks, 14" hypercoil springs
30x9.5 15" BFG Muds
Custom skid plates
Nose job (custom front bumper) http://www.flickr.com/photos/subyvanagon/sets/72157624970330925/ |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10739
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| Running with metal suspended in the fluid is not a good idea. |
Absolutely NOT! A grinding paste of steel bearing hardsurface flakes kinda gives me the willies just thinking about it.
Saw the oberg, its a nice unit. But any filter is better than none. Remember Type1s (no filter!).
I should have drained a little off the bottom (cold, settled) just as a routine measure. It was quite easy to check. Just pull the plug and poke a finger in the hole. Then put it back.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Two words.....scavenger filter
Before you ask...an Oberg, pick the micron level you wish to filter.
Running with metal suspended in the fluid is not a good idea. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10739
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Is there any reason any of you can think of that reinstalling the PS Pump, and using it for gear oil as described here, wouldn't be a good idea? |
Is there any reason to pump oil cooler than 160F? A belt pump that runs all the time might cost fuel mileage.
An electric pump that only runs while temps exceed 160F sounds like a better idea. I wonder how much the electric pump would run. Only when climbing a mountain pass? Or do they run all the time you're on the freeway? |
This is why you need a temp sender in your case.
You will see exactly how often your box heats up.
I use an electric fluid pump.
Weddle offers the complete kit.
Yes, it is big dollars and worth every penny.
Make sure your rebuilder is up to speed on the internal mods that go along with the auxiliary cooling. |
I agree on the temp sender. A guy could parallel a switch ontop of the sender, for 'control'. Certainly an LED that tells when pump is running, and I like the guage too. Do they still make those guages that operate a switch too?
I don't see why it needs to be big dollars. A pump is $140 and the rest is just fittings and hoses and electric parts. If it only runs when overheated this should not be full time. But the question remains for a normal Van with a normal EJ25  and normal tires.
| Sodo wrote: |
| I wonder how much the electric pump would run. Only when climbing a mountain pass? Or do they run all the time you're on the freeway? |
The next questions. Are there a few simple mods (oil holes etc?) that you can ask a tranny rebuilder to do, that will prepare a tranny for a shadetree mechanic's oil cooler setup?
Such as
- Drill ESSENTIAL passageways (if they are essential for a cooling function)
- Where to Drill & tap "in & out" holes
- Where to Drill & tap sensor hole
I personally would not worry much about magnesium chunks from drilling into the case. Drill carefully, and with grease on the bit & grease on the tap. I've been running my tranny for (up to) 9,000 miles with flakes of hardened bearing surface in the oil and a LOT of it. IMHO a few chunks of magnesium is an insignificant downside to adding a cooler.
What Alaric did, RULES! I could live with that (thru filler and drain holes), and even using push-on fittings & band-clamps. Many, many of us did it in the old days on Bug motors. I NEVER had a problem with oil pressures that far exceed what this cooler will see.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Is there any reason any of you can think of that reinstalling the PS Pump, and using it for gear oil as described here, wouldn't be a good idea? |
Is there any reason to pump oil cooler than 160F? A belt pump that runs all the time might cost fuel mileage.
An electric pump that only runs while temps exceed 160F sounds like a better idea. I wonder how much the electric pump would run. Only when climbing a mountain pass? Or do they run all the time you're on the freeway? |
This is why you need a temp sender in your case.
You will see exactly how often your box heats up.
I use an electric fluid pump.
Weddle offers the complete kit.
Yes, it is big dollars and worth every penny.
Make sure your rebuilder is up to speed on the internal mods that go along with the auxiliary cooling. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10739
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Is there any reason any of you can think of that reinstalling the PS Pump, and using it for gear oil as described here, wouldn't be a good idea? |
Is there any reason to pump oil cooler than 160F? A belt pump that runs all the time might cost fuel mileage.
An electric pump that only runs while temps exceed 160F sounds like a better idea. I wonder how much the electric pump would run. Only when climbing a mountain pass? Or do they run all the time you're on the freeway?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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garryv84
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2010
Posts: 276
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Mine works great!
Heat not a problem anymore.
But the parts inside can be weak.
Should not go more than 125hp |
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dkoesyncro
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 1000
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I was just wondering how this trans cooler is holding up? With the recent post of trans failure, this seems like cheap insurance until the rebuilding is needed! |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Or a tee'd return just before the thermostat/solonoid. |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5863
Location: Wamego, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I just liked the idea because I have a stock pump sitting on the shelf as a leftover.
It seems like at least one of the participants in this thread has the pump running anytime the engine is running vs switched by a thermostat. Maybe I am wrong on that.
If for some reason it would be bad to pump cold oil through the cooler, perhaps the stock PS pump could still be used...
What about a solenoid switched by a thermostat that simply closed the line between the pump and transaxle? So the vanes or whatever of the pump would be spinning in the oil that was in the pump, but they wouldn't actually push it anywhere until the solenoid opened.
If that was bad, then instead the solenoid switches between a recirculating loop and the loop containing the cooler could work.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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nmerrill
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Joined: January 07, 2014
Posts: 388
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I thought that was a great idea too, except, I'm not sure I want to be pumping potentially thick gear oil through a whole cooler system when cold.
Now, set that PS pump up with an electric clutch from a AC pump... |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5863
Location: Wamego, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I found this thread while originally looking for info on gearing/rebuilding my 091 for my '78 Bus with a TDI motor. (Thread in sig.)
If you read the thread, you'll see that the transaxle failed toward the end of a road trip in September. 4th went out, followed by third and a tow.
I think that a good percentage of the failure was due to heat (though even before the conversion, 4th was a little noisy so perhaps it was inevitable).
I say this because though I didn't think to try to measure the heat when it was starting to act up, I had been struggling with the engine's heat issues and was basically driving it by the water temperature gauge, and was going as fast as I could while keeping it less than about 220.
The gearing stock, and I had larger tires to lower RPMs a little, and have since seen (in this thread, among other places) that this can likely contribute to or at least exacerbate heat problems.
Now that I need to get the transaxle rebuilt, I'm concerned with not blowing up another one! So cooling seems like it would be a good thing to consider.
The idea of use of a power steering pump intrigues me.
My TDI engine came with a PS pump, but the bus did not. So I eliminated the pump from the engine, though I still have it in the garage.
Is there any reason any of you can think of that reinstalling the PS Pump, and using it for gear oil as described here, wouldn't be a good idea?
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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boroko
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2012
Posts: 326
Location: S.W. Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Update: Welding complete, no glove bag needed. After looking around and talking to a few welders, the consensus was: 1) clean area of any shavings or grindings, 2) make sure you have enough shielding gas around the area of the weld, and 3) practice on something small enough you can cover it with sand if you mess up. (a bad gear carrier was the sacrifice)
Got a pound of AZ92 for under $100 and it all went well.
Mark
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'87 SyncroWesty: Smokey the Turtle, '85 SubiWesty: Chappie, '84 GTI, '86 GTI in full Rally trim,
previous: 2 Syncro tin tops, 2 Vanagons, 3 busses, 3 Ghias, 2 Jettas, a 411, a gas and a diesel Bunny and about 25 Beetles, one that only drove left. |
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boroko
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2012
Posts: 326
Location: S.W. Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:34 am Post subject: |
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OK, since there wasn't a flurry of replies on the welding, I shaved a few bits off of the bad gear carrier and touched a match to it. Sure enough, pretty white sparks. To me that means there is quite a high concentration of magnesium and it will require a glove bag to attempt any welding on it. Unless someone chimes in, I will probably pick up some mag filler rod and an abatement glove bag and give it a try on the scrap gear carrier.
Still interested to hear anyone's experience.
Thanks
Mark
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'87 SyncroWesty: Smokey the Turtle, '85 SubiWesty: Chappie, '84 GTI, '86 GTI in full Rally trim,
previous: 2 Syncro tin tops, 2 Vanagons, 3 busses, 3 Ghias, 2 Jettas, a 411, a gas and a diesel Bunny and about 25 Beetles, one that only drove left. |
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boroko
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2012
Posts: 326
Location: S.W. Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:21 am Post subject: Welding on the main housing? |
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Since this thread has a lot of the heavy hitters looking at the circulation/cooling/temp issues, I wonder if anyone has experience welding on their 094 main case or gear carrier to add bosses for plumbing/sensors?
Specifically, I'm wondering which alloy rod you used and if it is high enough Mag to need to bag it to weld on it?
Plenty enough experience on TIG'ing aluminum but any advice might save me a lot of trouble.
Thanks
Mark
_________________
'87 SyncroWesty: Smokey the Turtle, '85 SubiWesty: Chappie, '84 GTI, '86 GTI in full Rally trim,
previous: 2 Syncro tin tops, 2 Vanagons, 3 busses, 3 Ghias, 2 Jettas, a 411, a gas and a diesel Bunny and about 25 Beetles, one that only drove left. |
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