Syncro - to lift or not to lift, that is the question.

[T3Syncrohammer!]

Hi, I am getting ready to do a Bilstein B6 HD for 16” shock install on my Syncro Adventurewagen (Weekender set up. No cabinets or roof bed instead a hammock up top!) Aka
Syncrohammer!

I was gonna go GoWesty 2” lift springs but read several people who found that to be not a good pairing? And After reading this thread on to lift or not to lift ?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538751

I have decided to go the spacer route. As many people chimed in and would not go through the effort of lifting it over again!
Currently in the mid to low 17” range front and mid to low 18” in the back.
Want to bring it up to 19.5” stock early Syncro hardtop range or possibly a mild lift beyond that. Considering the limit of potential lift with washer or cutting board spacers (risk of spring shifting position) and the expense of custom made spacers that retain spring position (often times costing the same as buying lift springs!) I did a lot of research and found what appears to be a good reasonably priced solution!

These have an internal neck that retains the springs position and come in 20mm and 30mm shim height.
Roughly 5.2 inch diameter
Roughly 3.9 inch internal neck
See the attached chart below. Wondering what other people think of this idea?
And if there is any reason it is not a good solution?
Or would not work?

[davevickery]

Cutting springs doesn't seem to work well anyway. The springs ends are squared off with the last coil bend back in, but cutting it leaves the end sticking down a lot. There must be a lot of pressure on the strut perch right at that point and it made it harder to line up the shock bolt with it not sitting flat. I got it in and it flattened out with weight on it, but I would not cut a spring again unless I had a way to bend the pigtail flat.

I just ordered Syncro.org springs. I also ordered a clamshell type MacPherson strut spring compresso ($86 on ebay). I am not up for struggling again like I did the first time.

That Maas lift kit that Van-Cafe sells looks pretty nice, similar to the GW Progressives with Fox shocks but cheaper. But $1200 is still out of my price range at the moment. I am also wary of the sagging I have been hearing about. I don't think I have heard that about the SS springs.

[Sodo]

[artacoma]

I bought the tintop trail master set from Van Cafe for about 1 1/4" lift and it installed easily without spring compressors. I had the wheels at full droop to install and carefully jacked up to tighten stuff up.
_________________
Cheers
Rik
86 Syncro Tintop
2.5 Subie
86 Doka
2.5 Subie

[davevickery]

Well that did not work. As I said above, I cut 1 1/4 coils off the stock 87 Westy front 2wd springs. They seemed like they were gong to be way too long, but they were probably OK. Now the van sits about 3/4" lower than it did with the stock syncro springs. If I had not cut them I'm guessing it would have lifted it a 1/2" or so which is what some original posts about doing this said.

The ride felt pretty good though. It felt like I had taken 10 psi out of my tires. If I drove it more I might have noticed more sway and bobbing with the softer springs but just a quick drive around town and it felt more cushy.

Now to buy some actual lift springs (and a spring compressor).
Dave

[davevickery]

I read here and a couple other posts that you could put 2wd springs in the front of a syncro. There is some conflicting info though on ride, spring rates, and spring length. So here is my experience.

The spring rate of the 2wd spring was said to be the same as the syncro spring, very close to 450 lbs (80 kg/cm if that is the correct unit of measure). I measured the thickness and I don't think they are exactly the same. My original 2wd 87 Westy front springs (with 2 brown dots) have 16mm wire. The syncro spring is a little thicker at 16.6mm and agrees with prior posts. So the 2wd springs are probably a bit softer than the syncro. How much, I don't know, maybe just a bit (16.6/16.0 is only 3.75%). 430 maybe? Close enough to be worth trying.

But the 2wd spring is much longer, maybe 14.75. The stock syncro springs that came out are 12.5" or maybe a bit more. A previouos posting said they are supposed to have a free length of 12.8 or 12.9, so that sounds like normal sag.

Anyway, I think these 2wd springs have to be cut. I didn't install them all the way so I don't know what the final ride height would be, but it looked much too high. Maybe the Carat springs would have been a direct fit. There is conflicting info on the Carat springs specs too, but reading several posts it looks like they are about the same length as the syncro springs but with a higher spring rate. Maybe someone can find the specs.

So currently I have cut off 1.25 coils, which seems to be about 1.25 inches in height. It is a little hard to measure because neither end is flat, especially the cut end. I cut the bottom, figuring the metal spring perch could handle the cut end better than the top rubber piece.

I'll post up more details and ride height when it's done. In the end, I may wind up with Syncro.org springs, but this isn't costing me anything but try. I am a little curious how a slightly softer spring will feel up front and if I guesstimated the right amount to cut off.

Dave

[BCE56]

Hello everybody-

My Syncro tintop has a Frankenmotor, spare in stock front location. Weighs right at 1000 lb at each corner, lightly loaded, 1/2 tank of gas. When traveling, I load my gear on the floor, not on the roof or the back, to maintain balance. Front suspension rebuilt with stock rubber bushings.
Alignment to specs based on ride height (see below.) Stock brakes, VC, rear locker.
Mostly used on pavement, w/ a little dirt roading when possible.

I did not want to depart too much from factory specs. Tire dia, gear ratios, and brake efficiency are factors, as well as axle/CVJ concerns.
And, of course cost is always a factor.
After considerable research, this is the combo I selected for my Syncro:

Stock springs (160000 miles) net ride height = 18.5" to 18 3/4" as loaded
OME shocks (availability) Boges might also work well.
215 75 BFG at/at, 35psi, on Rheins (Thanks, V.C.)

Results:
Shocks/springs appear to be a good match with these wheels.
Firm ride, not stiff on pavement, and not too harsh on dirt roads.
Nose dive @ braking minimized.
Good manners over potholes and speed bumps.
I notice a bit of "thunk" at full extension of front shocks.
Quiet on highway as tires are brand new.
No clearance issues with these tires and rims.
Little if any difference on acceleration and braking.

I am happy with this setup, and can recommend it to Syncro owners w/ similar needs. I hope this helps...
The next step up might be the Traimaster system, at considerably higher cost.


I now have 5 GW alloys w/ 16" Geolandars for sale.

[SyncroScott]

[mrshrimp]

Jabah -
Thanks for the info and discussion offer. I just went ahead and ordered the D/P springs with a fresh set of OMEs. I had emailed Steve awhile back and got this info from him, not all too different from the discription on his sight but might be useful for this thread. (I dont think he'll mind me posting this PM as nothing is confidential and is only good things) :

"Although there are slight variations from van to van due to different set ups, etc., the Syncro Westy D/P springs will give a ride height on a stock syncro of roughly 19" - give or take 1/4" or so. My syncro is just a hair above 19" and i have had the springs on since the beginning of October. (I had the O/Rs on my van before that). I have one shim on the left rear about 1/4" to level it due to the westy lean. I have to check it again to see if I may need a thin leveling ship up front on the left, too. But it has been very close left to right so far. They should be fully seated by now.If you want more height than that, it is easy to shim it higher. But I am finding after all the testing I have done that right around 19" is a pretty good height for dual-purpose. Pavement handling suffers a little as you go higher - unless you also go stiffer - but then you lose the benefit of supple springs and off-road performance. The suspension also tops out easier, too. The extra inch of travel is noticeable performance wise and height wise. You will definitely notice a difference. [/i]

Now all I have to do is figure out how to install them! Maybe I'll PM with some questions.

-Keith

[insyncro]

Taking a ride in a van with the spring shock combo you are considering is the best way to cut to the chase.

[Jahbah]

There are in fact a few other helpful threads, this one is kind of the best resource for Syncro springs. Jon slider has written some good info a few pages back about the different lift options. There seems to be a bunch more discussion about Syncro.org vs gowesty springs then hard data or info about either option . If someone let me try out these springs I would defiantly do a good write up comparing the options (hint to the manufactures ). My main confusion is with the two different westy springs from Syncro.org. A fair amount of people enjoy there Syncro.org springs (same as gowesty). I tried the gowesty 2" lift kit for a 2wd and didn't care for the progressive nature on my van, which pushed me into trying the Syncro.org springs. But again most people either say I like them or don't like them(and don't elaborate), or simply imply by occasionally agreeing with others. When I decide and test I will surely report back here. Because this seems to be the best modern discussion about Syncro springs, at least that I can find. Thanks to all those that have
contributed.
Some light reading.......
Maas write up
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=582668&highlight=syncro+springs
Gowesty spring install
[/url]http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=243222&highlight=syncro+springs[url]
Review of gowesty springs
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=503953&highlight=syncro+springs
There are certainly more threads with other anecdotes but less spring specific discussion. Mrshrimp if you have questions feel free to pm me to discuss over the phone.
Cheers
D
_________________
'87 Westfalia Weekender + '86 Syncro Tintop +'02 Impreza 2.5RS
= '86.5 SuperWestySyncroSubyWeekendermobileagon =
Bueno.
Jahbah~D

[mrshrimp]

I've read through all the suspension threads and just cant find any feedback on the S.org springs. Most of the feedback is on the GW springs. I'm with Jahbah, just trying to get some good honest perspective on those ones. But also understand not wanting to push one over the other.

-Keith

[insyncro]

[mrshrimp]

What springs are on your non-offroad syncro?
-Keith

[insyncro]

I have tested all GW and S.org springs from day one.

Both have pros and cons well covered in numerous threads around here.

My "offroad" suspension does not use either the GW or S.org springs.
All custom with Eibach springs on all four corners and adjustable shocks.
Numerous mods and additional parts are needed to do so.

[Jahbah]

I know there are few people out there running there syncros with the Syncro.org springs.....

I am curious about peoples thoughts on the D/P vs O/R springs. I spend a bunch of time off road on 4wd trails. Is there much to be gained with the off-road biased springs or are they more tippy than the D/P springs. Any feedback would be great.

-Phishman thanks for your input what are you running the D/P or O/R's

-Insyncro you get yours installed? any feedback on these puppies?

Thanks Guys

Jahbah!
_________________
'87 Westfalia Weekender + '86 Syncro Tintop +'02 Impreza 2.5RS
= '86.5 SuperWestySyncroSubyWeekendermobileagon =
Bueno.
Jahbah~D

[OddN]

My syncro Multivan pop top TDK has Trailmaster springs and shocks, and has a ride height of 20,5 inches, both front and rear. I used both trailmaster spacers up front, and the original diesel aluminum spacers in the rear.

Maybe a little too aggressive for the CV's but Ive had this setup for about a year now, and so far no CV failure. Not much serious off roading yet though.

Running 206R-16 on Mefro 6x16 steel Wheels.

Im overall very satisfied With the ride quality of the Trailmaster lift kit. However the brakes are marginal at best, but that is a result of the Wheels, not the lift itself.
_________________
1991 VW Multivan syncro 1,9 TD

[Syncro Jael]

[Jon_slider]

[Syncro Jael]

I raised my Syncro Westy with GoWesty/H&R German Progressive Spring Set (2" Lift) coupled with Old Man Emu shocks and a 1/2" spring pad for the drivers side rear.

LF 19.25
RF 19
RR 19.25
LR 19.25

I needed the additional clearance for the 215/75/15 tires. My stock springs were sagging and I wanted to get back on a level playing field again.

My ride improved but a little stiffer than what it was. Probably just new shocks helped a lot.

The lift definitely hurt my MPG's. I used to roll along at 17-20 mpg all day long running the same size tires. Now I am 15-18 mpg Subaru EJ22.

On our last trip (loaded down) we tipped the scales at 5730 lbs driving through Oregon on a weigh your own scale.

I am missing the MPG's. Maybe if I took off the light bar, rack, skybox and lost some weight some mileage might return.

Again, it costs money to try and be cool like the others and you pay and pay and keep on paying!

Still I am pleased with my lift, have read many comments from others before I did it, but would probably not go to the expense again. Us old guys now have to jump up another couple inches just to get in! Hahaaa
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat)