| Author |
Message |
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
 |
|
Just a bump on this topic, I still have everything and am pointed the same direction on the build. Now that my baby girl is mobile, I have some time in the garage to start back up on my two engines. Currently just finished putting a core 1600 engine back together to move my 1967 beetle down the road for a bit: It needed new seals everywhere, which turned into seals, pushrod tubes, rings, exhaust valves, and springs/keepers/retainers. It is back together now and almost ready for fireup.
I'm not sure I will build anything else once I finish this stocker single port build. Prices have just gotten too high on all the parts and I don't have a ton of spare time, even though engine stuff is really my favorite part about VWs. So far the upgrades consist of 85.5mm pistons and cylinders, CB2280 cam, bolt together rockers, backcut rocker arms with genuine Porsche swivel adjusters, and the small amount of head work with HD single springs. I don't even know if the engine balancing guy is still in business now it's been so long since I've taken my last engine to him.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jbbugs
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2002
Posts: 2191
Location: Behind the wheel
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I built a 1641 single port for GF’s 68’ Beetle. I used a CB 2231 cam with 1.25 rockers on the intakes. Cleaned up the ports a bit, had everything balanced.
Stock 30pict carb, oil bath aircleaner. Her Transaxle has a 3:88 R&P, stock gearing. It’s been a Super smooth running engine that’s a pleasure to drive. She ran it almost every day for 4 years until some 26- year old, Stoned Idiot with a suspended license plowed into her while at a traffic light.
I salvaged the engine and trans, and am putting it into a nice 64’ Beetle that we’re restoring. I’m pretty anxious to get her back on the road.
_________________
Drag bus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MOVmKdhX4
69 OG paint Transporter
73' Super Beetle Champcar Endurance Roadracer
Patina my ass, that's a Rust Bucket! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8713
Location: PNW
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Floating VW wrote: |
| bsairhead wrote: |
| My point towards a poster on this thread was that 77's had the thickest walls. . . |
Fair enough.
But I was referring only to the cylinders that were designed to fit in the OP's engine case. (To my knowledge), that would be the 1500cc, 83mm cylinder.
No worries. |
Those AA 77mm late cylinders fit a regular 1600 case like the 1300 cylinders do. The other poster recommended boring out the cylinder to 83mm which could be done with these if you have good pistons or find a good NOS set
_________________
Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1628
Location: The South Zone
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| bsairhead wrote: |
| My point towards a poster on this thread was that 77's had the thickest walls. . . |
Fair enough.
But I was referring only to the cylinders that were designed to fit in the OP's engine case. (To my knowledge), that would be the 1500cc, 83mm cylinder.
No worries.
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 15095
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
Two more children is not a significant change. It’s an enhancement! 
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vamram 
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 8165
Location: NOVA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| I've been sitting on this for a while, it got back burnered with the addition of kids #5 and #6 (both girls!)....I'm really thankful that we have not had....any significant job or family changes. |
Hilarious!! 
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
“If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”
Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...languishing since 2022.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| My point towards a poster on this thread was that 77's had the thickest walls. My first VW was a 63 with a fresh rebuilt 66 1300 motor. I bought it in 78 at 16 years of age and gave $500 for it in Edina Mn. with my dads approval. Dune Buggy supply in Hopkins got a lot more money over the next couple years than i spent on it originally. I baja'd it cut the fenders off and rolled it twice. Best money ever spent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8713
Location: PNW
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| I've heard differing opinions about cylinder wear, but almost all the research I've done (not much hands-on experience in this area yet) agree that the pistons are more likely to be worn out than the cylinders, all other factors equal. I may get a dial bore indicator soon instead of using snap gauges and a micrometer, just haven't made up my mind to do it yet. |
Snap gauges and a mic can work well if you have good technique. My way is with the cylinder clean, head side down on a piece of glass (i don't own a surface plate) I angle lock and rock my snap gauge out at the spigot side which should be undistorted for the most part. Than i take an angle and insert it all the way (that's what she said) With the gauge sitting on the glass i spin it and lift. Out of round is detected by tightness and over worn by the height you can lift the gauge until it makes contact. The trick to this method is to get your good eye right down the center of the cylinder and twist back and forth slow and easy as you lift. Most people just fiquire its cheap enough to buy a set. I have never checked a new set. Could be perfect, could be worse than what you got. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I've heard differing opinions about cylinder wear, but almost all the research I've done (not much hands-on experience in this area yet) agree that the pistons are more likely to be worn out than the cylinders, all other factors equal. I may get a dial bore indicator soon instead of using snap gauges and a micrometer, just haven't made up my mind to do it yet.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 15095
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
You can get a pretty good idea of the life left in the cylinders by looking at where the top ring stops. If there is a sizable ridge there that will hook and hold your fingernail then it is likely too worn. I have re-used many used cylinders that after 60 to 80K miles only needed a few passes with a proper cylinder hone (not the dingle ball type) to clean them up. It's my view that most VW P/C sets are tossed out not because they are worn out but because replacements are reasonably priced. I am an old "re-use, re-cycle where ever you can" guy.
In my experience VW cylinders don't seem to wear as badly as the American cast iron engine blocks. Material? Rod ratio? Bore and stroke ratio? I don't know.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Floating VW wrote: |
| Damn, I'm too late!. |
I never really considered reusing the original (if they are truly original) pistons and cylinder just due to the number of assumed miles on the engine. If it truly has the 130k that shows on the odometer, and that the valve guides reflected, I don't think I'd have much usable life left, at least in the pistons.
The best tool I own to reach down into the ring lands is just a dial caliper... I can't think of any other way to measure them. But I don't mind checking the old stuff over and at least seeing what kind of life is left in them.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Floating VW wrote: |
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| AA Pistons and CB Performance didn’t let me down, they delivered the next few parts for this motor over the last few days. |
Damn, I'm too late!
I was really hoping to convince you to keep the original 83mm P&C's (assuming they're still within spec). 83's have the thickest cylinder walls by far, and that's a good thing. 85.5mm sounds like a nice upgrade, but I had a 1500cc single-port that I later converted to 1600cc, and honestly, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference in performance. I'd rather have the thicker cylinder wall of the 83mm than the added displacement of the 85.5mm.
In fact, when I was designing my latest mill with the goal of longevity in mind, I purposefully went with 83mm P&C's (which I had to import myself from Brasil) and dropped in a 76mm crank for the bump in displacement. A more beautiful pairing there never was!
If you want a set of cylinders that will last damn near forever, 83mm is the way to go. |
Do you not have knowledge of the 66 1300? 77mm pistons wearing cylinders you could bore out to 83 and still have meat. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1628
Location: The South Zone
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| AA Pistons and CB Performance didn’t let me down, they delivered the next few parts for this motor over the last few days. |
Damn, I'm too late!
I was really hoping to convince you to keep the original 83mm P&C's (assuming they're still within spec). 83's have the thickest cylinder walls by far, and that's a good thing. 85.5mm sounds like a nice upgrade, but I had a 1500cc single-port that I later converted to 1600cc, and honestly, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference in performance. I'd rather have the thicker cylinder wall of the 83mm than the added displacement of the 85.5mm.
In fact, when I was designing my latest mill with the goal of longevity in mind, I purposefully went with 83mm P&C's (which I had to import myself from Brasil) and dropped in a 76mm crank for the bump in displacement. A more beautiful pairing there never was!
If you want a set of cylinders that will last damn near forever, 83mm is the way to go.
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1574
Location: Westfield, MA.
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
That’s because most of the people Pooh pooing the idea of single port have little to no experience with them or ain’t old enough to remember them, or maybe they’ve lost too many brain cells and forgotten.  Then again this is high performance forum so if you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. I would do all the things you suggested except skip the 88s keep it 1600 and balance it. It might be time to get back to basics and reread an old book like how to hotrod vw engines by Bill Fisher. Written in 1970 it has solid info on what was happening then using OEM parts but that’s not to say time has stood still, advances have been made. I’m with you keep it mostly stock but you an cheat a little using choice OEM items. |
Agreed 95.6735 percent... except i'll point out again this isn't a high performance forum, it's a performance or engine or transmission forum. Sorry that always irritates me I totally agree that building a nice single port can be a lost art. They are so much fun when done right. And what are these brain cells you speak of?? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1642
Location: S.W. MI
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
Check the front long cam journal studs, I would heli-coil them while doing case savers, 2 out of 3 engines I have worked on had pulled, wouldn't torque, at least check torque b4 you assemble. Will never do another case with out that and case savers, sucks to be doing final torque and have them let loose.
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
Yeah, my fault, I meant to write 50cc’s.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 11424
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Calculating it out for this beetle engine, using 85.5mm bore, 69mm stroke, 50mm heads, and 8.5:1 CR, the deck height would only be .019" which seems pretty snug. |
50mm heads? I don't understand.
The 0.019" DH is gonna be a problem. It's really close to the valves.
I run 0.039" in my 2276 and makes me squirm a bit.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 3358
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
I'm going off memory since I can't find it written down anywhere, but when I rebuilt my '71 bus engine several years ago - gosh close to a decade now - I think I had a static CR of 8.1, with a deck height right at .040" It was easy to build and didn't take much to get everything in range.
Calculating it out for this beetle engine, using 85.5mm bore, 69mm stroke, 50mm heads, and 8.5:1 CR, the deck height would only be .019" which seems pretty snug. I mean it makes me squirm a little to think about it being that tight. I haven't CCd the heads yet but the math looks like I'd need about 48cc to get to a .033" deck, which seems more tolerable.. am I on the right track?
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 7670
Location: Durango, CO
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for stocker single port rebuild |
|
|
With 8.5 I would definitely use premium octane fuel.
To touch on the MPG conversion from page 2, I get 19-20 MPGs while city driving (I drive it hard) in my ‘65 Deluxe with a 9-1 2109cc. My bus with a 8.13-1 2275cc gets 17 city and 21.5 hwy.
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’71 Double Cab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
