| Author |
Message |
inorganic
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2016
Posts: 60
Location: Portland, OR
|
 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:20 am Post subject: ignition coil exploded! |
 |
|
hey there,
i was idling my engine to burn off that new rear-heater core smell and noticed a pile of hard plastic on the ground (queue van anxiety). i opened up the engine bay to find my ignition coil (~12months old) exploded out black goo.
has anyone else seen this? curious if it could be a sign of something else....not looking forward to cleaning this up. 
_________________
'86 SYNCRO Weekender |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32988
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 10128
Location: Where?
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| inorganic wrote: |
hey there,
i was idling my engine to burn off that new rear-heater core smell and noticed a pile of hard plastic on the ground (queue van anxiety). i opened up the engine bay to find my ignition coil (~12months old) exploded out black goo.
has anyone else seen this? curious if it could be a sign of something else....not looking forward to cleaning this up. |
You're not the first: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581079
_________________
I am a high-functioning autistic into VW diesels and Vanagons along with other things that are unrelated to this site. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
inorganic
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2016
Posts: 60
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
thank you both for your replies!
?Waldo? - great article you posted here, my coil failed under similar conditions (extended idle).
Dave - I can identify most of those parts you carry, but not all. which ones do you have onboard?
_________________
'86 SYNCRO Weekender |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 5913
Location: Bemidji, MN
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
i've had non-VW coils fail also and they seemed to contain that same black death.
at an idle, the dwell time, meaing the time the coil has 12v applied to charge it, is at it's maximum. not in terms of degrees rotation as that doesn't change but in terms of time. obviously exceeded the duty cycle of the coil, which is a bit scary that the margin of safety is that close.
old points systems had a ballast resistor that was bypassed during cranking (direct feed off the crank pole on the ignition switch)for hottest spark and put in the coil circuit during running. modern ECUs control that 'on time' but it looks like the early electronic systems we have don't. very good to know!
my old airhead BMW can do the same thing to coils with extended idling or key on time. they modified the ignition control module (not quite a computer) in later years to have a timer circuit to turn off voltage to the coil.
i've idled my van for really long periods of time dorking with the cooling or ignition systems. i'm going to reach over and touch the coil periodically now, or maybe it is an excuse for another gauge!
-dan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32988
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
Oh Geez!!!
Now you're going to make me carry a coil aren't you?? 
I think there's room for one more item.....
Dave |
Where is your alternator voltage regulator?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fraggle00
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2011
Posts: 356
Location: Bristow, VA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
Yikes! I wouldn't touch test it I found this is the result of a failure. Temp gun! I keep a little one for RC nitro cars in my van to check temps on things, especially helpful when my motor was acting up before I rebuilt it.
_________________
'91 Vanagon Carat
'87 Porsche 928S4 DOWN
'12 Fiat 500 Abarth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10156
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| Quote: |
| which is a bit scary that the margin of safety is that close. |
It's not that close, the Digifant ECU lowers dwell time at lower rpms, or maybe more correctly, the term dwell as a function of crankshaft degrees is obsolete, the ECU now just uses a time function, whatever time it takes to saturate the primary and no more. This allows use of higher-current coils without overheating them. This can of course be measured with a dwellmeter and it will look like a varying dwell angle.
Dwell was fixed mechanical relationship which required coil power to always be a compromise, as soon as engineers had electronic control of saturation time, of course they would use that advantage to use a higher-current coil. It's the natural progression of design.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gauche1968
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 1562
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
Yeah, that happened to me (but worse) at 65 MPH in the left lane of the interstate. I had to coast across three lanes to stop. I don't know if these Bosch Made in Brazil coils are top notch quality.
_________________
1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan 
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17296
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pinetreeporsche
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2009
Posts: 752
Location: Falls Church, VA
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| fraggle00 wrote: |
| Yikes! I wouldn't touch test it I found this is the result of a failure. Temp gun! I keep a little one for RC nitro cars in my van to check temps on things.... |
Great strategy; I looked on the web and must have entered the wrong phrases, didn't find one. Can you give the mfgr and model no. for one (or more) of these. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teej
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 908
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
I looked in the engine bay today and discovered this. Last drove it Saturday morning, ambient temps in the 50s, a couple easy 45minute runs on rolling secondary highways speeds 35-55 and no extended idling. No running issues. Did not try to start after seeing this. Coil is Bosch, installed in 2015, 21k miles on it. I saved the old one will put it back in. Is there anything else I should check that might have caused this without giving any running symptoms?
*Edit: I just remembered a couple weeks ago, Sept. 29, I was in a 1.5 hour stop and go traffic jam east of Snoqualmie pass, so yes extended idling, in and out of first gear, crawling along with no airflow, rad fan cycled alot. But no running issues then or several runs since, but maybe this melt happened at that time as I don't think I've been in the engine bay since. If that is the case, surprised that it continued to start and run well.
_________________
1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4694
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
Just questioned how my coil failed recently in another thread, so there is a way to lower the voltage, and possibly the temps of the coil, here is the quoted text of that thread.
| bobbyblack wrote: |
I recently had a coil go bad, and decided I wanted to know a little more about how these things work.
Here is a youtube of a crafty tech. that helps me understand what might be happening. I am not saying this is what happened to my coil, but if it is happening, I sure would want to know about it sooner rather than later.
Link
I don't have access to the kind of equipment that this guy does, so I'd rather like to know how a general knowledge guy like myself could determine if I am getting multi-strike, having too much voltage running into the coil, all that sort of stuff without taking it in for an analysis by a scanner like that.
Is this a 'touch it after its been running a while' kind of thing? If its frickin hot, then put more ballast in the positive side (after letting it get full voltage on the start circuit like in the below explanation of what a ballast resistor is)?
Link
|
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VeeDubDaySpa
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2008
Posts: 370
Location: Bend, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
I have dealt with this on a van that blew numerous coils and found the ECU to be faulty. Also, was told that that black stuff is extremely poisonous and carcinogenic so be safe.
_________________
North American Hightop Installer/Distributor
Current stock (3)
Hot Water Systems
_______________________________________
90 Syncro NAHT Vanagon RHINO
86 "Syncro" Van DIAMOND
87 Syncro Hightop WestyCamper ROCKY (for sale soon)
79 bay window OLIVER |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teej
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 908
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
thanks bobbyblack for the links, I have seen the first one before but my understanding of all that is incomplete. Thx for the safety tip VeeDub.
I just put the old coil (removed in 2015) back in and it runs fine. I will continue to run and monitor for heat.
My theory at this point is that the coil got hot in that extended stop and go a couple weeks back, melted some and leaked, but did not fail completely. And has been running ok since. If so, I am feeling grateful that the traffic jam cleared when it did before the coil blew up and left me stranded in the middle of a big traffic mess on I90, making it that much worse, plus I had a dog with me in the van. In hindsight, when I got to camp afterwards that evening, when I sniffed the back louvers there was an additional scent note to the normal nice hot engine smell, but it was faint, I couldn't place it, and I ignored it. Should have trusted my nose and investigated further!
_________________
1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans
Last edited by teej on Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 1038
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| A lot of coils are oil filled, thats what you see leaking out... I've had coils rupture on other non VW stuff and get that junk all over the place. Time for a new coil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 914
Location: Phoenix AZ
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| GoEverywhere wrote: |
| A lot of coils are oil filled, thats what you see leaking out... I've had coils rupture on other non VW stuff and get that junk all over the place. Time for a new coil. |
The coils (inside *the* coil) and the oil expand when heated, and that's when they normally will short, or go open circuit. And most all transformer oil I've used over the years has been pretty carcinogenic/mutagenic stuff. Used to have to replace the oil in the custom built transformers for a high voltage leak detection piece of equipment (25-30KV). I know NOW how toxic it was...this was 35+ years ago.
_________________
'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teej
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 908
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
The usual vendors I go to (VC, GW) are sold out at the moment, glad I saved the old but still working one to use for now. Bus depot has in stock but do not state the manufacturer, so I will hold off buying from them until I learn what it is they are selling.
_________________
1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 5913
Location: Bemidji, MN
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: ignition coil exploded! |
|
|
| khughes wrote: |
| GoEverywhere wrote: |
| A lot of coils are oil filled, thats what you see leaking out... I've had coils rupture on other non VW stuff and get that junk all over the place. Time for a new coil. |
The coils (inside *the* coil) and the oil expand when heated, and that's when they normally will short, or go open circuit. And most all transformer oil I've used over the years has been pretty carcinogenic/mutagenic stuff. Used to have to replace the oil in the custom built transformers for a high voltage leak detection piece of equipment (25-30KV). I know NOW how toxic it was...this was 35+ years ago. |
right. true nasty gene-mutating dioxins. same as in old capacitors. but it is my belief that the Bosch coils are just filled with a bituminus resin, no worse than creosote <grin>.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
