Placeing the copper manifold gaskets.are there cutouts

[1970bay]

Recently i changed the exhaust on my 1700cc aircoole

It took two days before i unbolted the four manifold tubes to drop exhaust heater boxes in one then cut off the old exhaust,
When i put it all back i didnt have the copper manifold joints(gaskets)nor it seems had the previous owner, who had hammered out copper washers

Now i have four new joints -"gaskets"

In the morning the local garage will let me use the lift to fit them.Do i 'ballence" them on the tube top and hope they stay in possition or is there a cutout to drop them in?
If not.do i glue them with greace to stop?them moving as i refit the exhaust heaterbox
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[grandpa pete]

you can cut "slots " from the outside edge into the bolt holes to slide the gaskets on
_________________
63 two fold rag
66 sedan delivery Type 6

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569619&highlight=sedan+delivery

[1970bay]

Cant i or we if i have help will have the manifold tubes jammed on the pushrod tubes or better resting
Then ill put the copper joints on the tubes and push the whole thing-exhaust heatboxes -back up to the heads where i hope ill get the bolts in and the whole thing bolted up

At the moment the camper fillis with smoke

The joints i want that the exhaust gas goes into the exhaust & out

There is still a leaking pushrod tube which i can then get on with

The entire exhaust heater system weighs a LOT so im not sure the joints wont be wageleg out of place as i we push the pipes up to the heads
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[busdaddy]

There is a recess they fit into to keep them aligned, glue them up there in place first with grease or something sticky. Before installing heat them with a propane torch until they turn blue and let them cool to soften them, also run a large flat file over the ends of the flanges to ensure they are all flat and level with each other.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[Wildthings]

The manifolds should push up between the pushrod tubes. Some tubes have flattened area to give more space for the manifolds, if so then rotate the tubes so the flats are on the sides verses being otherwise positioned. The gaskets in general are a tight fit up into the head, but using grease or something else to help hold them can assure the job goes better. I use copper silicone in the recess and then let it set before installing the heater boxes. Most of the silicone will squish out as you tighten down the nuts and the rest will burn off eventually from the heat.


This is my technique for dealing for replacing the pushrod tubes.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420944

[aeromech]

Please follow Busdaddy's advice about using the torch. The first time I installed these copper gaskets I didn't do it. Later, it leaked so the second time I heated them up red hot and let them cool. They were significantly softer than before. I also made sure that the F pipe had smooth, even tips where they contact the copper gaskets. I used super glue to hold them in place prior to installing the F pipe. I also tried to torque the nuts evenly as I drew the pipe to the head.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Randy in Maine]

Also worth reading is this from Bob Donalds....

http://www.suburbanengine.com/articles/hbmanifold.htm

and this

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Exhaust.html

[dugfresh]

This is a video I made of Anealling my copper gaskets per the above instructions.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos?pid=6030503069397997666&oid=118086300295259808382

**EDIT** Uploaded to Youtube as well

http://youtu.be/UObYuQmfEqg
_________________
78 Riviera
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDRJPa1

[1967250s]

What I do- Once you have the copper gaskets annealed, see how they fit into the recesses. Then carefully tap it on the curved ends with a hammer LIGHTLY, so it spreads a little bit, fit into recess. If you have done it right, they will need a little tap to go in and will hold there without any help. The grease idea sounds good, too.
_________________
'72 Elm Green Deluxe

[1970bay]

OH.not so easy

Im at the French Spanish fronteir and have no more than a clean area of blacktop on which the bay is standing,

To change the exhaust i found a French garage with three lifts and a help.One of the lifts has broken.

Now i have the copper joints,ive found a Spanish garage with one lift,and if im not done in about half an hour he might lower the lift and push me out done or not i have no choise.

I didnt see any gas bottles there?i have known garages & plumbers that have been out of gas
At 8am i will be there by 9am it will be done.i certainly will do what i can to heat the copper,but i wont drop the tubes below the pushrod tubes.last time i had to use a tyer leaver to ease past the tubes.I cant be worse than it is with tin gaskets cut out from normal manifold gaskets
If its still not sealed today,ill buy four more copper joints and hope the French garage.lets me back when the lift is fixed in two weeks
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[1967250s]

Maybe find a stove with gas, or a someone with a propane torch?
_________________
'72 Elm Green Deluxe

[1970bay]

Im useing a slow 3G connection and tethering to post from my tablet.The connection is sooo slow youtube wont play
Ill look for a cafe they dont open until 7am and are FULL until 8am
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[1970bay]

Yes.ive taken the sink stove unit out for the moment to give more room but i have a camping gas unit which ill try
Stupidly i left the copper joints at the garage.When he said i could do the work on Sat.I thought he meant his mechanic,but he said id have to do it by myself and i wasnt ready for that
Its a bit of a disaster.I wish id known what i had to do to start with.I had no idea it would be so much work just changeing the exhaust
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[Wildthings]

Annealing the copper gaskets is unnecessary unless one or both of the sealing surfaces is quite messed up. Don't sweat it if you can not do this added step that is not mentioned in the Bentley or any service bulletin that I am aware of. If you are using used gaskets then yes anneal them. Do get the flanges flat and then round the edges slightly so they don't dig into the soft aluminium heads as you slide the heads into place. I would also recommend not drilling the holes in the flanges any larger if the heads will slip readily into place without doing so, I certainly would not go a couple of steps larger as mentioned in the Boston Bob article. Running an 8mm or very slightly larger bit through the holes to clean them out is a good idea though. You want to be cleaning out the rust, not removing metal unless the flanges just will not fit easily over the studs in the heads.

If you have some blacktop to work on and a few blocks you can position under the rear tires to lift the rear end up 100cm or so you don't need a lift. I would recommend installing each heat exchanger separately and not trying to install the entire exhaust at once, though some people do do it that way.

[Amskeptic]

[jtauxe]

[1970bay]

Monday was a nightmare.

I arrived at the Spanish garage to find the lift in use.I asked about heating the joints,which fell on deaf ears.While i waited i set up the camping gas,cooked the joints by hanging one on each arm,then plunging each in turn into water.

That done i could drive on to the lift.I showed the mechanic what had to be done.The manifold bolts were off and the heat units unscrewed.We pulled and the whole unit fell the exhaust hitting my head.
At this point the mechanic was told to get on with another job.

I was told i had to do the work alone I remembered what id read hear and had brought locktight,i cleaned the ports filed the manifold tops with care- the entire system now on the garage floor, the joints "glued"in place.I asked for help to lift the unit back into place

A mechanic came to help,we lifted the untit up put a plank under it,then there was the garage owners wife telling the mechanic to get back to work,and shouting at me,i had to do the work alone

I went to ask for help but the wife told me her husban had gone out.

The garage was a mess tools in no order and poor condition,i asked for wooden block or somthing to put in place as i lifted the unit up from the plank.The mechanic were afraid of there boss and more of the awful wife

One of the braver mechanics who spoke French came to put a new bulb in the lamp and helped lift.but had to flee when the wife came out again

I thought then of putting the unit in the VW and asking to escape,but blocked in,i decided to do what i could as on the lift it was better than on the ground


Eventualy i found jacks & leavers got one side In place.the otherside was almost in place.At 11.00 my hair soaked in oil hands black the owner was back.I told him i needed help,and got it with two of us pushing and tapping with hammer and chisel it slid into place

Bolts on and tight the wife was back shoulting at me,

The lift was lowered i put covers heating tube no in place nuts bolts glue in the camper.put tools back,helped push the car blocking escape out.and flead

Alone with no help i drove off the lift avoiding cars and out.Then came back to pay,was alowed to wash.then the owner said i had to pay nothing at which his wife came out of the office

My Camper flew accros the frontier to France a hot shower and change of cloths.i was still black

Work will continue on the park place this afternoon,

Will i have to retighten the manifold bolts,will the copper joints compress further with the engin run??
_________________
Travels with my camper:
http://flickr.com/photos/30879804@N08/

Built in 1971 The engine was changed from 1600cc to a 1972 flat 1700cc engine in 1974 otherwise nothings been changed std twin vw carbs

[busdaddy]

Wow! quite the adventure!
Yes, you'll have to retorque or tighten up the nuts at least once soon and maybe check them again in a week.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[aeromech]

Well you got half right. Heat the copper gaskets until they are red hot and then let them air cool. Do not quench them in water. That's the difference between annealing and tempering.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Heyfishguy]

Cool story, sounds like an adventure!

Copper is too soft to temper. Quenching in water is the standard way to anneal copper.

Tom