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My first stroker -- it lives!
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Past few days have been somewhat stressful getting this thing fired up and cam broken in, but it lives. This is a low-budget build, many of the components were bought off Amazon with gift certificates I got awarded at work. Case is from a frozen bus engine I picked up for $40, current carbs are a $150 deal off of eBay. I think of this as a 2276 on a 1776 budget, built in spirit of The Samba's "just stroke it!" mentality. Most will probably not agree with the combo, but I'm experimenting and this is what I ended up with.

AS41 universal case, 8mm head studs, bored for 94mm, full-flowed
EMPI 4340 VW journal crank
EMPI 5.4" H-beam rods
Stock flywheel, lightened to 12.5lbs, KEP Stage 1 plate, Bugpack pulley, all dynamically balanced
AA 94mm B p/c
AA 500-420 heads with 40x35.5 valves, 60cc chambers, cleaned up with Dremel without removing the guides, dual springs
Manton thin-wall chromly push rods
Web 109 cam -- 108LC, 287 total duration, 260 at .050", .465" with 1.1 rockers (currently running 40hp rockers LOL, lift around .435")
SCAT light-weight lifters
CB Performance elephant feet and solid rocker shaft kit
.050" deck height, 9.3:1 CR
EMPI oil sump
CB Performance 26mm Maxi oil pump, Berg full flow kit
1 1/2" Bugpack merged header, A1 Phat Boy muffler
Currently 36IDFs with 32mm venturis, F57 tubes, 52 idles, 135 mains, 200 airs
Locked out 009 with CB Performance BlackBox

Weirdo-mismatch combo lol. Took it around the neighborhood for a quick test run -- it runs, last night it rained, taking a corner in 2nd the car breaks traction right away without even loosing it's line, wheels just spin. It appears to have some lower-end torque, more than the 1835 it replaced. Now is tuning time, these carbs are somewhat new to me and aren't sorted out yet, I do have a set of Spanish 40IDFs with 30mm and 32mm venturies.

So, here you go, 2276 for around 2K. We'll see how it goes. Big Thank You to John and everyone else who helped by answering questions and commenting.

Stan


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Stan,

you aren't married are you? Laughing

You are no longer a beginner, that's for sure! The engine sounds and looks great!
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

I am. I'm fortunate to be able to work from home a lot, so that helps -- I get chunks of time during the day to do some testing. It did take about a year and a half to complete. I can be pretty stubborn, which can be good and bad. Thank You for the support and help.

Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

the only mismatch i see is the bugpoop header and the small oil pump....if it has too much lowend and you want more top end just add raito to the rockers. have fun and change the oil&filter 3-4 times in the first 100 miles!!
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Thank you, Mark. I'll setting up the 40IDFs with 32mm vents for it, I know them much better -- the 36IDFs keep popping occasionally and will complicate things. I have a set of 1.1:1 CB rockers ready to go, I also have 1.25:1 SCAT rockers from 10 years ago, but I never really used them. Header is easy enough to change at some point. For filter, I use K&N 3001, I'll change it soon. Oil pump -- yeah, that's controversial lol, I've always used 26mm pumps, though most 1600s I've taken apart had 30mm pumps in them. I've run 20w-50 Valvoline VR1 and 10w-40 Brad Penn (running 10w-40 Joe Gibbs break-in oil now). We'll see how it goes, looking forward to tuning it, I enjoy that.

Stan
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Ok, installed the 40IDFs with 32mm venturis, quick initial tune with 52/135/200, went for a drive to break in the rings.

One word: torque. It is there everywhere, right off idle. I am wondering why guys are afraid of cams with more duration on larger motors in Beetles? This cam is supposed to be like an Engle 125, but I don't see lack of power in the low range at all, I have to be very careful at light throttle because it's jumpy and will break tires loose. Is it my 4.12 gearing? Rev limiter is set to 5,300, I hit it in 1st through 3rd, it pulls fine up there. I realize my carbs/heads/exhaust are small, I do have the advantage of knowing how the car ran with same components, but with 1835cc of displacement.

I do have an issue -- after car runs, if I turn the engine off I won't be able to start it again -- it acts like the battery is dead, but it isn't. Actually, battery is new. I put the car on trickle charger, it shows red (charging), then after a while turns to green -- then the car starts fine.

Is my starter failing? It started doing this with the 1835 but at least I could start it most of the time unless it sat for a long time, this engine does have more compression and dual springs, so it's probably harder to turn.

Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

135 mains are quite rich with 32mm venturis. Try 125-130

You are experiencing why most of us that have been around a while, go "bigger" on the cam when stroking. If you don't, the engine simply has too much torque down low. So you go bigger on the cam to soften the low end a little bit. It winds up being easier to drive with the bigger cam, compared to the smaller one. 50 idles may also help tame that touchiness.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

The torque is nice though. I'm glad I didn't go with a W120.

Will a failing starter make the car hard to start unless a battery is at full charge? I've had to push-start the car twice, luckily there are hills everywhere so I just roll down the hill. But, I need the car to start with the starter at all times lol.

Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Nice price on the build, let us know how it runs out.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

My 2276 originally started as a super budget build like yours. I had about $1500 into everything, but as I learned more, and salary kept increasing, I sold off the parts and bought better parts. I got the case for free, STD/STD and unmachined, freshly turned 10/10 82mm crank for $100, rebuilt 912 rods for $80, 44 IDFs for $180, AA pistons for $100, Engle 120 for $30, professionally hand ported 40x35 heads for $250, etc etc... Then I changed stuff up, and have $6000 into it.
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

There is some uncertainty building a larger stroker for the first time, some is valid and some is probably due to stories on forums of stuff blowing up. Not tieing too much money into this thing gives some relief if it were to fail. Plus, it isn't a typical build, wanted to see how it would work out.

Stan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Congrats Stan. Sounds good. I love that feeling when an engine comes to life for the first time.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

stan_tichomirov wrote:
Ok, installed the 40IDFs with 32mm venturis, quick initial tune with 52/135/200, went for a drive to break in the rings.

One word: torque. It is there everywhere, right off idle. I am wondering why guys are afraid of cams with more duration on larger motors in Beetles? This cam is supposed to be like an Engle 125, but I don't see lack of power in the low range at all
Stan


I agree! I have a near identical combo with a 125 and 1.1's I can cruse at like 1500rpm in top.

Well done, it sounds good in the link too
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Brian
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Dude, nice! I seriously dislike your venting, but that's just ntty gritty.

Why generator and what fan do you have?
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Venting lol. When I was trying turbo stuff, I tapped that plate for oil return line, I reused the plate and just ran a hose to the breather. Surprisingly, I have yet to see a drop of oil from this thing, but I haven't run it on the freeway yet.

Generator.. it came with the car, I have another spare plus one in the Fastback. Haven't thought of converting yet. Fan is a later wide one, not welded.

Stan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

I don't see how that cam is comparable to a 125, the total duration is barely more than a 110. Sure the duration at .050" is more aggressive, but I just don't see it.

Anyway, nice low buck build. Looks like a lot of fun per dollar!
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stan_tichomirov
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

You are right about total duration. I don't see people using this cam often, but people that do mention it (like Torben), do say it makes torque.

One note about this cam: with my components, it cleared crank even though it was not stroke-clearenced. And that's with VW journals. I had it turned down anyway, but it fit fine as-is (at least, the engine spun).

Stan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

My starter was bad. Rebuilt Bosch installed -- works fine, car drivable!

John, wideband is telling me 135s may be too small. It starts studdering a little after transition, but overall runs pretty damn good, pulls strong. Lots of torque for driving hills, too.

And, with engine being wider, seems header fits better now and flange is lower so my exhaust isn't banging on the fender anymore -- bonus.

Stan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

If it's lean in transition but OK WOT try 140 main 210-215 air
The spanish 40 IDF-70 do tend to get a lean spot with the 32 vents

The only mismatch is the 36 idfs, and they aren't on there, should keep it that way. Great carbs for a small engine but....this isn't small is it?
It's a good combo for second gear drifting.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: My first stroker -- it lives! Reply with quote

Yeah, it is! It's snappy as hell and pulls great, where the 1835 had to be revved to go faster here you just have to feather the throttle and it's driving itself. This is the VW I've wanted since I was a kid, and I'm 40.

If anyone is considering a 1915 -- do the 82mm crank. Your stock diff will probably blow up with a 1915 anyway and you'll need to upgrade the transaxle. The torque is worth it and I'm using the same parts many would buy for a mild 1915. All off-the-shelf stuff, "touched" with a Dremel.

I've always had this funky transition thing with 32mm vents, that's why I had my stock ones machined to 30mm. I can always go back to them later if I want. As is, it idles in the 12s (rich -- I know, need to turn in mixture screws), around town I'll see 15s. Accelerating at part throttle it'll spike to 17s, which is where it studders. If you feather the throttle, it's fine, but if you get on it it'll hiccup, then catch up. I could try to play with timing. I can post my timing map if anyone is interested (BlackBox rules).

On the freeway, it's in the 12s if I'm on flat ground (is that on the idles?), going up a hill at 65mph+ with some throttle will put me in the 16s -- ok. Flooring it will put me into 14s. Can't guarantee that my wideband isn't lying, or the bung I welded in with a stick welder isn't leaking.

Rings are broken in, finally took it for a nice 45 mile run around the city and some freeway. Here it is idling after a hot run, appears to be running cool (knock on wood), no oil smell and no hot smell, and doesn't stink like it's too rich. Idles smooth too, like a big stocker. Also, have yet to hear it ping once. 9.3:1, shitty 91 octane.

Good feeling.

Stan


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