Webasto vs Espar sources & output

[kguarnotta]

I've got an '86 Syncro with a pop-top. I have been reading a lot of threads on the different heaters since last winter. . At this point I'm sure I want one that runs on gas - as I don't want to have to store/deal with another fuel source. i've been saving up, and ready to buy one.

I think I've narrowed it down to the Webasto Airtop 2000 STC or the Espar Airtronic B4L M2. I see a couple sources for these - Heatso and Heaters4U.

I see a lot of folks write about how great theirs works, or it is undersized or oversized...but I rarely see all the info about the heaters. IE are you heating with the top up or down, what temps are you trying to heat in? etc.

I am looking for a heater to use when driving in well below freezing temps in New Hampshire. Also - if I were to camp out for a night, or hang out it in during the day (with the top up) in temps in the 20's.

I see the specs on the units - but don't really know how to convert that to comfort in my van.

Also when I price them out - I see Heatso.com seems to be a full service shop with all the parts, quick response to questions about the units, and fast shipping - but they are 55% more...which is a pretty huge difference. IE Espar heater - $1400 vs $975. I don't mind, and expect to pay more for what Heatso offers, but that seems like a BIG difference. Am I missing something?

Thanks for any tips on this...
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

2001 Eurovan
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[valvecovergasket]

I wonder if those more expensive kits you're seeing come with the pile of random install parts needed to properly integrate one of these into your van.
That stuff all adds up too. If the more expensive kit comes complete with the pump, plumbing (for the fuel and hot air, and exhaust) and the vents, and wiring, then that'd easily make up the 400-600 difference.

For what it's worth, I've got a diesel 2k Webasto in our van and it's fine for such a small space. Windows up, top down, driving you don't need much heat... Top up winter parking would probably take some serious heat to overcome that loss. Also keep in mind running overnight is gonna blow through your battery..

[dobryan]

I bought an Airtop 2000 from the russian outfit heaters4u and they promptly shipped and it was as described. I am just now installing it in my euro bus project so have no feedback. But I can say that the Propex HS2000 I had in my westy did fine top up down into the 20’s. Below high 20’s I’d recommend insulate the pop top. With the top down it had plenty of heat.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[BCgee]

I installed an Espar B4 in my hightop Syncro for similar use: regular van use in well below freezing temps in Montana several months of the year. No regrets, highly recommended.

On paper the B4 has a pretty darn high BTU rating compared to the HS2000. In practice the B4 is a game changer for making snow season missions downright luxurious. I use window coverings if parked for an extended time and yes, they do make a difference, although if you don’t mind wasting gas the B4 has plenty to keep you warm in single digits with no insulation; you’ll just hear the heater cycling more often. No problems with “coking” up the B4 when used with the High Altitude Kit.

The Heatso kit gives you all the gear you need for a typical install and that’s why it is a few hundred more than just the heater from eBay vendors. All totaled for my build I was probably closer to 2k than 1k with the HA kit and custom piece orders going piecemeal with a build. The Espar parts are also well supported with proven reliability in severe cold, which was a deciding factor for me.

Take a look at my B4 thread, hope it helps: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725855
_________________
1987 SVX Syncro Hightop

[vanis13]

3? Years now on the Espar B4. -10 outside 80 inside

The high altitude kit only avail on Espar not on wabasto so if you'll be doing time above 5k it's worth it.

Get the digimax 1000 thermostat as it also reads and clears codes which are possible until you dial things in. If you end up with this pm me on a couple mods for the digimax.

A house battery is nice so you don't have to worry about running down the main.

Enjoy it!
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace

www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make

[RGS Paul]

We have the AirTop 2000 STC in our tintop syncro and love it. We use it all the time in the winter to pre-heat the van in the morning or make ski trips nicer. We live at 7k feet and have used it up to about 11.5k feet in Colorado and it is not having soot issues, it has a manual altitude adjustment so I have the max output throttled back quite a bit.

I got mine at heatso.com, great service and they shipped very promptly. Installation was pretty easy under the rear seat on the passengers side of the van. I can post pictures later.

Paul
_________________
'87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman

[kguarnotta]

thanks for the feedback -
I do have 2 aux deep cycle batteries - 80 AH each (160 AH total?). I think those 2 batteries should be enough? I've also been following the LiFe PO battery installs, and thinking of upgrading to that - as the 2 batteries take up a lot of room and I think they are where I want to install the heater. If I go with the LiFePo - will be 100 aH amp at least - but I see folks getting 120 or 150 AH under drivers seat.

As far as heat - currently I don't have a rear heater, and my front heater doesn't put out the right amount of heat. I've been trying to figure that out - on another thread. But even with that working - I don't think I'll have enough to heat the whole van when it is really cold. Especially if I want to do any camping - or hanging out in the van during the winter. With my kids in the back - I need to get this thing warm for the morning drives to school.

I'm not looking at the HS2000 (although that was my initial thought) even though my van came with an uninstalled propane tank. I'd just rather not deal with a 2nd fuel source, and something else hanging below the van. I've seen some nice mods with storage boxes which i'd prefer if I'm going to hang anything below.

I did get a window insulation kit with the bus - which sort of seems to work, but I find the suction cups fall off half the time - anyone have any tips on that? I've gotten the glass and suction cup as clean as possible...although my windows have tint on them, I wonder if that affects the suction cups?

As far as heater installation - I've got the 2 batteries under the bench seat on the driver side. This is a weekender style - so no kitchen cabinet. I think the heater wants to go on the driver side - as I don't want the exhaust anywhere near the slider (based on reading other posts). So I think I will need to move my batteries. I've really got to get it all done before this winter.

The random parts are definitely something I worry about - the Heater4u website seems a bit incomplete - thanks for pointing out the potential missing parts. I think I'll pay the extra - as I don't want to begin the install, and run out of parts.

I think I just need to determine BTU's

Espar Airtronic B4L M2 - 4400 to 12970 ~$1,500
Webasto Airtop 2000 STC is 3100 to 7000 ~$900
Webasto Airtop EVO 40 5800 to 12000 - ~$1500

So I guess the EVO40 is comparable to the B4L - and I should probably be deciding between the two of those - if I want to camp with top up. I guess now I'll just try to understand the pros and cons of these two models...

I don't think altitude is an issue for me here in NH, but if I did go to high altitudes (I can always dream, right?) I'd want one that automatically adjusts - which is the Espsar, right?

Anyone with experience with the controllers for these models have any input? It seems like there are a few different controllers - and hard to understand find the specs without going through the whole manual on each controller.
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

2001 Eurovan
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[kguarnotta]

I forgot to ask about the mounting plate options...I don't really understand if I need one of these or not - and the advantages of using one.
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

2001 Eurovan
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[vanis13]

[kguarnotta]

Sounds like a strong vote for the espar...and probably where I'm heading.

I love the idea of the controls that are being made for the chinese diesel heaters, and love their cost. I don't like the idea of adding a diesel tank.

Heatso has the easy start pro timer - which appears to have diagnostics as well as the ability to set a timer for heating the van (I like that idea for winter skiing). It is only $30 more.
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

2001 Eurovan
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[vanis13]

[erste]

[vanis13]

[erste]

[kguarnotta]

I'll reach out to Heatso - they were pretty helpful before, and try to find out how the Easy Start Pro and the Digimax 1000 compare, and if you can get as detailed an error message/code on the Pro.

Thanks for these tips.
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

2001 Eurovan
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[vanis13]

[vanis13]

[vanis13]

[fxr]

Unless you really have money to burn - NEITHER.

Get a 2kW cheapo Chinese diesel heater (run it on Kleen-Heat though, no smell) and have an Afterburner control unit to run it via your phone or whatever (Wifi, Bluetooth or MQTT) - with frost mode, linear temperature control rather than just 'ON-OFF', several timer controls, etc, etc.

The control options on Webasto and Espar units are medieval in comparison.

Yes, the Afterburner will cost almost as much as the heater, but in the end you'll still have only spent $300 in total.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[vwwestyman]

I'll admit to being jealous of some of the control options available with the Chinese heaters, but other aspects of them make me nervous as compared to my diesel Espar. (I installed it in my '78 TDI Bus about a year before threads on the Chinese heaters started popping up.)

I do REALLY like it though!

I control it remotely. I have a Digimax controller mounted on the back Westy cabinet for easy adjustments from bed. I then tied a wire into the yellow wire that was mentioned, and ran that up to the front. If I give that wire 12v, it will tell the heater to come on and run up to and maintain whatever temperature the Digimax is set to. (Some info I found when doing this mod, indicated that it would only run at full blast, but that has not been my experience. After testing, it is clear that it is running to the set temperature and then maintaining it.)

So assuming I have it set at a comfortable temperature from last time, it is an easy matter to turn on from the driver's seat. And it's also easy to pop out early and pull the knob by opening the passenger door to turn it on for preheating.

I've considered buying a GSM kit so I can text a message to preheat it, but I haven't gotten that far. Seems like it should be a fairly simple matter to do, though.

My heater is mounted under the Bus with a splash shield. It's been there for three years now with no problems. Heat is piped in to the two rear factory vents.

Also, as said, your batteries will be plenty to run it.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing