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vince1
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Joined: December 14, 2003
Posts: 839
Location: Burgundy, France
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79703
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2025 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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I guess they figured the "empty can" shrouds they've been selling for years really didn't do the job. So now we have SUPER SHROUDS.
I'll still stick with good used OEM or the Concept One shrouds.
https://store.concept1.ca/brand/Cooled-Fan-Shrouds/
Good parts ain't cheap,
Cheap parts ain't good.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 508
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2025 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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I've only been in this hobby since 2000, so I'm still a newcomer -- but EMPI bashing has been The Sport for as long as I've been around. They make some trashy stuff for sure -- but so does CBP and so did BugPack and most of the rest... before they eventually sold out to EMPI (like just like JayCee and DRD, etc.). EMPI is at least trying -- CBP has been frozen in amber since Pat Downs left.
Be careful what you hope for -- the EMPI parts catalog is the only thing keeping this hobby from sliding into oblivion.
Regardless, the EMPI 36 hp shrouds everybody's been using for years have always had vanes, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, Glenn.
I've run Raby (now sold by LN Engineering) T1 DTMs on most of my engines since Jake Raby was posting 14 times a day (before he wised up and moved on) -- but there's never been anything wrong with the EMPI/Scat/CBP 36 hp doghouse shrouds literally EVERYBODY uses. I've got one on a 2110 I have in my car right now, and the delta on all 4 CHT temps (I monitor all of them) is minimal. I'll give you 20 bucks if you can show me any functional difference between any of the 36 hp doghouse shrouds (and I've bought them all) because they all come from the same mud-hut in east Asia.
... and they're all every bit as good as nasty beat-up and rusty old OG tin, and certainly as good as a "Thing" shroud copy from Concept 1 (which doubtless comes from the mud hut next to the one where the EMPI/Scat/CBP shouds originate).
This is a new product, and one that seems to have some thought put into it. We swoon when Revmaster casts some new cylinders or heads with the same old problems but scoff when AA or EMPI comes out with something in an attempt to move the ball down the field.
Snobbery about what piece of Chinese whatnot for a glorified lawnmower engine is better than another is odd in the extreme -- especially when there's no quantifiable functional difference.
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Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14877
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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It looks to me like another fix for a problem that does not exist.
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old! |
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stevemariott
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 1107
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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Well said, 58 Plastic Tub. 
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Schepp
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2020
Posts: 534
Location: NorCal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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You are doing a disservice to your engine by not using a thermostat.
Why do so many people insist on not using them? Why don't you remove the thermostat in your daily driver while you're at it, if its not important. 
No f-ing way I'm buying a shroud that doesn't allow the installation of a thermostat and working flaps.
Try again Empi...
I have all the tins including homemade industrial tins on my open engine baja.
I like driving my car in the mornings and afternoons, year-round. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79703
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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If EMPI shrouds were so good, then why are "Super Shrouds" needed?
I guess they go with Super Cool Tins .
The problem is VW people are CHEAP and are willing to accept crap. The Concept One shrouds are copies of the OE shrouds and work great, but they're twice the price of the EMPI shroud.
EMPI should learn a lesson.
$92 EMPI shroud
$162 EMPI Super Shroud
$320 Concept One shroud
VW people need to step up and support quality products, then maybe EMPI will follow along.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15601
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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The problem is old people are stuck in their old-fashioned ways. Some people can't accept change and the way it's been done the last 40 years is the only way it can be done today. Then there are the folks that demand you do it the way they do it because their way is the only way.
This is the reason I have almost stopped posting around here. I looked into the mirror and saw a Karen. I am one of those assholes.
I Challange Glenn and oprn and 3-4 others to also look into a mirror and see if there is a Karen. I Challange you both to go 60 days without posting anything.
Raby quit posting years ago because he learned that it's easier to get out of the way of stupid people than to try to teach them something. If you notice Roy from MOFOCO no longer posts here. He says his business has tripled since he stopped. Not sure about John Connely from Aircooled.Net but I think he aged out.
You can't read a Chevy book and build a VW engine.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79703
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| I Challange Glenn and oprn and 3-4 others to also look into a mirror and see if there is a Karen. I Challange you both to go 60 days without posting anything. |
Actually a few years ago I took a 3 month leave, when I came back... nothing changed.
Personally I don't care what others do, I do it my way because that has worked for me. BUT... I do listen to others and have learned a lot from people like Brian, Modok, oprn, Alstrup and others.
Murt's 1800 build topic is bookmarked and i'm still learning from the wisdom passed on.
You can lead a horse to water.....
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4936
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Schepp wrote: |
You are doing a disservice to your engine by not using a thermostat.
Why do so many people insist on not using them? Why don't you remove the thermostat in your daily driver while you're at it, if its not important.
No f-ing way I'm buying a shroud that doesn't allow the installation of a thermostat and working flaps.
Try again Empi...
I have all the tins including homemade industrial tins on my open engine baja.
I like driving my car in the mornings and afternoons, year-round. |
Not saying to use tstat and flaps or not, I do not as I have seen them fail closed,,, I know that doesnt happen . Also comparing an air cooled engine to a water cooled modern engine has the same merrit as comparing a horse to a cat. My aircooled lawn mower does not use a tstat, never seen a Harley with one either. VW of Mexico discontinued the tstat some time before end of production, none of these had any problems. If I was in a cold climate primarily Imight use one, however in my 41 years working on these cars I have never needed one.
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2161
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
If EMPI shrouds were so good, then why are "Super Shrouds" needed?
I guess they go with Super Cool Tins .
The problem is VW people are CHEAP and are willing to accept crap. The Concept One shrouds are copies of the OE shrouds and work great, but they're twice the price of the EMPI shroud.
EMPI should learn a lesson.
$92 EMPI shroud
$162 EMPI Super Shroud
$320 Concept One shroud
VW people need to step up and support quality products, then maybe EMPI will follow along.
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I like the Concept 1 extended "doghouse" to accommodate a Type 4 cooler.
Our Formula Vee runs a Type 4 cooler on a billet adapter. It's out in the wind, no fan shroud, no engine tin. It stays cool for 20 laps at Lime Rock...
How many cheap fan shrouds have caused the premature demise of perfectly good engines over the last 40 years or so?
Got a set of chrome cool tins in my Formula Floor Sweepings parts buy yesterday. Also got a set of pistons and cylinders, a set of pushrod tubes and one orphan Autolinea head, stuff I can use. 
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4109
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Im one of those that lost a 2 year old factory motor when a tstat stuck shut. But, yeah, it never happens |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7866
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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I´d like to see the inside of the Super shoud before I say anything.
Half of all the "upgrades" which have been done to the various shrouds are done for the Californian or Florida based crowd, where f.i. lack of the thermostat system has less of an impact on the engine.
25% of the upgrades are clearly a result of a misunderstood or not thoroughly tested idea.
Roy/Mofoco stopped posting mainly because he did not want to accept that his products (heads especially) have a problem. Why do you think ACN, FAT, Stateside a.o.´s stopped selling them (?) There was a potential in the product, but it needed a lot more fine tuning.
For once I more or less agree with Dave  I´m probabbly a Karen too every once in a while.
Tub has a point, but, if they want to contribute to keeping the glorified lawnmowers on the road instead of just driving up and down from a trailer or down the strip-
Getting back to the Super shroud. If if if, the internals have been improved to the best layout (late model doghouse) and they have improved air flow (cooling capacity) with the venturi ring, it can be a nice alternative if you run a thermostatic controlled external oil cooling system, basicly like a 911. But before we get to that, lets see what the kid has.
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Last edited by Alstrup on Thu Aug 07, 2025 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 508
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
If EMPI shrouds were so good, then why are "Super Shrouds" needed?
I guess they go with Super Cool Tins .
The problem is VW people are CHEAP and are willing to accept crap. The Concept One shrouds are copies of the OE shrouds and work great, but they're twice the price of the EMPI shroud.
EMPI should learn a lesson.
$92 EMPI shroud
$162 EMPI Super Shroud
$320 Concept One shroud
VW people need to step up and support quality products, then maybe EMPI will follow along.
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... again, more of the same. Nobody ever got slapped down for bashing EMPI.
As I clearly said above -- there is plenty of trash in the EMPI catalog, but (thankfully) a lot of what they've been trying to do under new ownership has made some of their stuff better. They bought Bugpack, DRD, and JayCee. They're trying.
The 36 hp EMPI doghouse shrouds have vanes, and always have. You said they didn't. They work, which is why everybody trying to make a living in this hobby uses them. I have actual CHT temp data running an EMPI 36 hp shroud. Do you? I kind of doubt it, since you've apparently never even looked inside one.
For the thermostat and flap advocates -- it's 100% possible to add flaps and a thermostat to an EMPI, or SCAT, or CBP, or (I assume) Concept 1 aftermarket shroud if it's important to you. You can buy one 100% set up from Clark Callis (awesomepowedercoat.com). Does it make any difference if the only time I'm using the car is in the summer? Not in my experience (and again... I have actual experience). How many of you people are actually driving your 60 year old car through the winter in the upper Midwest? Why?
The broad generalizations about "cheap VW people" feel at least 20 years out of date, because there's nothing cheap about a VW. A SBC or Ford is worlds cheaper to buy, fix, and make fast. A 150 hp T1 engine of questionable reliability rings in at over $10K. That's a laughable value equation when a 500 hp crate LS straight from the General is selling for about the same money.
Yeah, there are guys living in 1975 as it regards pricing (most of them post here) -- but most of us who are left are willing to pay for something that works. Jake Raby still has people ordering $30K+ T4s, so there's that.
Personally, I've done some stupidly expensive things with a VW T1 -- dry-sumped, twin-plugged, and done every possible thing I've known to do to fix some of the problems everybody else just lives with. The shroud I use on anything above an easy/breezy 2110 is a Raby DTM -- which is a pretty cheesy (and horribly expensive) chunk of fiberglass with some pieces of .060 aluminum pop-riveted inside. I've got 3 of them because I haven't found anything better. I'm not convinced it's that much better than a $92 EMPI shroud, but I'll pay 7x as much if it's even a little better. So much for "cheap VW people".
Regardless, after 25 years of throwing money at this hobby -- the one thing I've found is that equating the price of a thing to the quality of it is nonsense. For years, your tagline was "you don't always get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get". It's as true now as it was when you were posting it. Probably moreso.
"Using what works for you" is great -- but there's a wide difference between that and bashing a part you've never used.
This new EMPI shroud is interesting and has some nice features (the venturi ring, etc.). How about we let somebody give it a try before we tell everybody it's "junk".
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Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79703
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Schepp wrote: |
You are doing a disservice to your engine by not using a thermostat.
Why do so many people insist on not using them? Why don't you remove the thermostat in your daily driver while you're at it, if its not important.
No f-ing way I'm buying a shroud that doesn't allow the installation of a thermostat and working flaps.
Try again Empi...
I have all the tins including homemade industrial tins on my open engine baja.
I like driving my car in the mornings and afternoons, year-round. |
Not saying to use tstat and flaps or not, I do not as I have seen them fail closed,,, I know that doesnt happen . Also comparing an air cooled engine to a water cooled modern engine has the same merrit as comparing a horse to a cat. My aircooled lawn mower does not use a tstat, never seen a Harley with one either. VW of Mexico discontinued the tstat some time before end of production, none of these had any problems. If I was in a cold climate primarily Imight use one, however in my 41 years working on these cars I have never needed one. |
Original ones fail open, the Mexican ones fail.closed.
Deleting them was a cost saving factor.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4109
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Anybody know when the doghouse versions are available? |
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94touring
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2020
Posts: 538
Location: Tulsa - OK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| These would work well for what I'm doing in a bus with external cooler only. It's basically what Andrig did with his shroud. Daily driver bug in cooler climates maybe not so much. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6207
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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I know from experience that the EMPI 36 horse style doghouse fan shroud is not just an empty box. It has directional vanes inside it that look (at a glance from below) like a stock doghouse fan shroud.
With all this hate for the EMPI shroud maybe I should install a real 36 horse fan shroud and get a new inline oil cooler. 
Here is a picture of the inside of a real 36 horse shroud, an EMPI 36 horse doghouse shroud, and a VW doghouse fan shroud.
I likely got these images I pasted together off of theSamba a long time ago. If anyone objects to me using there image, or wants credit for their image, please let me know.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7866
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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15-20 years ago SCAT doghouse shrouds were the ones which delivered the most equal cooling and thereby best. Sadly the quality of the assembly soon went down the drain. Ditto with the JP Group/Empi for the time. In the meantime the CSP delivered ones were the best on this side of the pond at least.
I am aware that the Empi guys are trying to improve quality. Wohnt bash them for that. The chain just breaks once in a while. I kinda see the logic behind what they are doing with that shroud. But again, it is mainly aimed for people living south of the 35th parallel, or they assume that people just don´t care. i don´t know.
The DTM was THE BEST cooling shroud for type 1 fans on the market. Period! But they were a little too expensive for what they were and they had their issues long term due to them being fiberglass and on top of that, people didnt spend the time needed to install them. They just slapped them on and called a day, with mediocre results as a biproduct.
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