Expensive-sounding noise, time for a Subaru? heh

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[SGKent]

Dave - do what you think best, but there are inexpensive options that are much better than running that piston. The heads can be tigged, new seats put in, and fly cut if you want to go that route, although bus heads take a beating. But I would not run that piston. Yes the engine will run with it, but you will always know it is there and you will always be waiting for the other shoe to fall - which it may at the wrong time.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[vwwestyman]

Not gonna run the piston!

Had just a few minutes, but was able to get the cylinder off.

The top ring, and even possibly the middle ring, are a bit pinched where the damage is. Top ring I couldn't even get to pop out, middle one moved with some encouragement.

Don't have time to read the comments since I responded yesterday, but here are a couple pics for your engine damage porn pleasure.

_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[skills@eurocarsplus]

well, that answers that on the cheap, 1 new piston/cyl or if you're feeling frisky just to p+c's and heads
_________________

[raygreenwood]

Yep! That's all we were waiting for! If the ring grooves are pinched all the way to the second ring....piston is done.

As Skills notes....if you can find a good used piston....go for it!

However, if just a quick fix is what you are going to do, I recommend pulling all four cylinders off and checking for scoring on the other cylinders and measure across the piston skirts. You may find that they are all on their last legs.

Ray

[SGKent]

look inside the bottom and see if there is a makers mark. Look carefully at the cylinder and see if there are any scratches or dings from the shrapnel. Let us know.

Mahle rings are such that the oil control ring is 3 pieces, two rails and a spring. Kolbenschmidt factory ones are the oil control ring is two parts, a coil spring and an outer cast ring.

Be careful, the edges of the worn rings are often as sharp as a razor blade.

My GUESS is that the rod is not bent because the pieces had so little mass.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[vwwestyman]

Ok, I've sent the seller of the piston and cylinder sets that was linked earlier two emails from the ad but haven't gotten a response... (Just tried PMing him, so we'll see if that gets a response in case they went to SPAM I guess.)

And have tried texting a lead for heads that I was sent, also without a response.

Anyone reading here have a good set of square port heads and or a set of Ps and Cs (or, I'd consider one good piston and cylinder set) they'd sell me?

I also just now was thinking about pulling the engine out of the Thing and shoving it in the Bus to make it mobile in town and/or easy to maneuver once towed to a location... I wouldn't mess with all the tins and such, but again, wouldn't be driving it more than a handful of miles at a time.

Nevermind. I stopped at the part where I need to cut the input shaft.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[Shonandb]

Hey Dave

Here are a couple listings from the Seattle area but I have no personal info or know if the seller is reputable or not but maybe worth contacting.

Heads
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/d/camano-island-new-vw-bus-porsche-stud/7827686784.html

Same seller with other parts

https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/d/camano-island-vw-bug-ghia-bus-engle/7832230644.html

P&C's
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/pts/d/camano-island-aa-piston-cylinder-sets/7827174688.html

This ad is from Portland for 2L square port heads (maybe you've already tried this one)

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/d/portland-vw-vanagon-bus-20-squareport/7845816016.html
_________________
*******************************
76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image

[airschooled]

I don't know how Weddle sells these for the price; I've installed a few of T1 and T4 lengths, and they're perfect:

https://weddleindustries.com/products/091-311-105-A/091-311-105-A

You'll need a 13mm socket/torque wrench, a bellhousing gasket, a gear oil change, and a few different shapes of small circlip pliers. If you tend to go ham and bend circlips, get a spare as well.

https://weddleindustries.com/products/091-301-131/091-301-131

https://weddleindustries.com/products/N-012-419-1/N-012-419-1


The hardest part is learning the geometry of how the input shaft coupler is clipped, slides out, and unscrews while the differential wants to block your every move.

Good luck,
Robbie
_________________
One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:

www.airschooled.com

https://www.patreon.com/airschooled

[vwwestyman]

Been a couple weeks... Thanks for those details, Robbie!

I bought a couple raffle tickets for some kind of built Type 1 engine being given away this weekend, so if I win I may consider that further.

However, in the mean time, I spoke with someone last night who has a nice-sounding pair of Type IV heads stashed away that he's willing to sell. And while we were talking, he checked his stash and found what appears to be a piston that'll match everything!

So now I (probably) just need to track down a set of rings. Any recommendations for a set of stock 2.0 rings?

Any other recommendations for "while you're in there" type stuff?
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[vwwestyman]

Didn't win the raffle engine, so I think I'll drop the idea of installing a Type 1 in there for now.

I received the box with the piston in it yesterday; hopefully the heads show up today.

Need to get on tracking down a set of rings, and ordering a seal kit and all that.

Also when I was taking it apart, I discovered that the 3 "Bus" CV boots I installed are all deteriorating, while the OEM Tiguan boot I installed is fine. Need to order 3 more Tiguan boots.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[SGKent]

[67rustavenger]

Dave, Here's a single set of the Hastings rings that SGKent posted about above,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283694259423?chn=ps&m...IvDazTwhyM
There is only one set left to purchase. Otherwise, your gonna need to buy a complete set of rings for all four pistons.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas!

[Wildthings]

Grant rings fit the factory pistons of the 1800 Type 4 I have in my '77 quite well. The engine came from a '74 412 car with high mileage so maybe there was some wear to the ring grooves, can't say anything for sure though. I have about 50K miles on a cheapo rebuild at this point in time with no oil use and normal compression numbers.

[SGKent]

[vwwestyman]

Ok... So I was thinking I'd go ahead and hone and re-ring the other three pistons/cylinders. Would you all go with the Hastings or Grant in this situation?

Sounding like perhaps the Hastings could be a touch too loose in the used pistons, while the Grant would probably fit?

Am I interpreting all that correctly?
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[SGKent]

[vwwestyman]

Oh man, I'm starting to have a hard time wrapping my head around what all I really need to do... Starting to go down rabbit holes and getting overwhelmed.

Haven't ever actually rebuilt an engine, and I struggle to digest the super technical stuff, and then I start seeing all kinds of things that I'm not sure apply... and time is very precious so it's difficult feeling like I'm wasting any when I'm trying to just put an engine together!

Anyway, that's where I am mentally. Here's where I am with the actual engine:

Pulled the cylinders and pistons off yesterday, finally. Doing so brought me to my first question:

Didn't think about wrist pin retainers before, but as I was struggling to get the first couple circlips out I realized it's probably best to replace them. Googling (albeit on my phone with gloves on at the time) was only yielding clips for Type 1 motors. Anyone have a part number for clips that will work for this engine? (Sub question: Circlips or the plastic cap things I also saw, if I can find some that will work?) This listing shows they will fit a '79 Bus but not an '80 Vanagon... https://www.jbugs.com/product/4074.html?utm_conten...PoEALw_wcB

Next question:

For the pistons and rings: I bought one that seems to be a match. I ordered both sets of rings that I could find, figuring that I'd just install whichever one fit my pistons better when it came to that time. (I was feeling optimistic about my own time capacities when I ordered them, so I thought I'd have both "on the shelf" for when I got to that point.)

Question is, would it be worth taking them to a machine shop and asking them to clean up the pistons and balance them? (I have to imagine they have the ability to be more precise than I do in my garage.) Maybe tap the skirts back into place? (Not sure I entirely understood that instruction.)

Last question(s):

Cylinders-I was also thinking about taking them to the machine shop and asking them to give them a quick clean-up honing. Again, I figure they can do a nicer job than I can in my garage. Anything specific I should ask for?

It was reading about honing pistons--trying to decide if I wanted to pay a shop to do it or buy my own honing tool and do it myself--that I started to see stuff about honing them oversize and using larger rings and all that that really got me to feeling this overwhelmed on all this! Please, I need help sorting all this out!

Originally, I was thinking I'd slap the engine back together, but since I got this set of rebuilt with better valves set of AMC heads and had to replace the one piston... While I don't want to do an entire rebuild, I want this top end rebuild to be pretty good and last.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[SGKent]

use a local machine shop. Have them hone the cylinders and glass bead, inspect the pistons. If the skirts are collapsed a little they can gently whack them with a rawhide hammer to massage them back. Don't you try it. Then wash the bores and pistons with hot soapy water to clean them. Make sure you read the instructions on the rings on how to install them. They are fragile, do not expand them anymore than needed to get them on. Lower ring first. Double check the spring expander to be sure it is on properly. Use a ring compressor to hold the rings compressed when you put them back. If you used a good snap ring tool you can reuse the snap rings. There are two sides - one side has a square edge and one has a rounded edge. The square edge goes out. Triple check them to be sure they are properly seated. Make sure you watch the direction of the arrows on the pistons. I use a carbide pencil engraver to mark piston and cylinder numbers so the same pistons can go back in the same cylinders. Mark the pistons on the bottom and the cylinders on the base so no sealing areas are compromised. Yes, I would have the shop do a rough balance on them. A little Black RTV is used to seal the based of the cylinders. Follow the pattern when you bolt the heads back on. Go over the torque settings three or four times. I let it sit 24 hours before doing the last torque. I don't do video chats on rebuilds but Robbie does. You may find someone in a local club who has rebuilt engines to help you do the final assembly.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[vwwestyman]